New feminist... ?

[lollyhop2girls]

Hi There,

I stumbled across this board today and I need some advice.. info.. about feminism.

I really have never considered that I am a feminist. I dont really know anything about it at all, I am not uneducated or ignorant, just dont happen to have had the issue raised around me before. Ive never been inclined to research it either until recently.

I saw a series on TV the other day called 'Women' it was looking at a different subject each week. First I think was Women's lib, then motherhood. I think the next part is on tonight actually if anyone's interested.

I found it fascinating, particularly the motherhood episode. It looked at the way different families work and the different roles that women play in the home.

I am a full time working mum of a 4 year old girl. I live with my boyfriend and for half of the week his 10 year old daughter.

I have always had strong views on how I am often judged for working full time. I get angry at articles in newspapers about how because I work my children arent having the right start in life, I am selfish, I dont feed my kids properly, they watch too much TV blah blah blah. (none of that is true in my case actually and if I think of all the mothers I have known over the last few years; the ones who stay at home with their kids actually are more likely to turn to frozen ready meals, day time TV and hours on the computer - not wanting to generalise, just speaking from my own observations)

I also have strong views on women who infantilize themselves be it financially, independance etc

I also hate when people say to my daughter 'when you grow up and get married' or when they constantly comment on how pretty she is rather than how clever.

Also, my step daughter is obsessed with dieting at only 10 years old. Her mother very openly diets and agonises over her apperance with her daughter. I mean, christ does she WANT her to grow up thinking she can only be succesful and happy if shes thin? (Her mother also tells her that school isnt really important because shes so pretty she'll probably just marry someone rich and not have to worry... arghhhhhhh)

In fact I think I may be an out and out feminist but still not really sure what that would mean..

Anyone got any advice.. comments..?

Sorry, I must sound a be naive. I would just like to know more because most of the time in the world we live in I feel quite alone sometimes.. if there was a group that had the same ideas etc as myself I would feel less so.

Thnaks.

And that was how it was in Britain in many working class families -the wife would take the wages to feed the family and give the man back pocket money.That power behind the throne stuff is repugnant. We want the women earning the mega bucks not the men.

All working parents of either sex would probably not agree that working means you turn your backs on child rearing. If you look at the hours of child care and love full time working fathers and mothers put in over their chidren's lives it it huge. Housewives tend to suggest working parents dump the child for 18 years and don't bring it up but that's simply not the case. Some housewives are neglectful of their children too.

Anyway the more wives of Japanese men we can have earning more than their husbands the better to try to eradicate that sexism and the fewer Japanese companies in London subject to sex discrimination law suits by women the better too. Most cultures are modernising throughout the world to ensure fairness and equal rights in law so I'm sure it will all improve in due course.

And there seem to be vast numbers of mumsnetters who earn the minimum wage and married much richer men so we haven't exactly got it very right or fair in the UK yet either.

I agree with all of your above post.
Where my opinion differs the greatest to yours is that I find it repugnant that anything men do, and anything they value, is reverred by society and those things that women do are completely trivialised. And I don't think any amount of places in the boadrooms or seats in parliament gained by women are going to change this fundamental view of what women do being inferior. On that note, you had better be careful that not too many women go into Law because soon you'll find that it will be regarded as a "soft" subject not worth bothering with. ( I mentioned on another thread that maths is considered a female subject in Japan, so I guess literature is seen as being a more valuable subject here and that men are inherently more creative... ). If too many women become lawyers the fees will decrease as men take off to another industry that will earn more.
I will say that having this discussion has made me think "OK, I definitely want to get going again in the workforce", because it is easy to become complacent after having babies. I should imagine you get a huge drop in testosterone or something, especially when breastfeeding. I think women should work and do well, but I also think that women who do the more important work of caring for newborns, babies and toddlers should be afforded proper respect (and ideally rewarded financially).

I don't think housewives are better mothers; thats a separate point. I do think some of them make the terrible mistake of living vicariously through their children, as in the examples you gave of the mothers who need their children to get the grade 8 in piano or whatever. That comes from only being defined as a "mother". I disagree with that, yes. Also, I probably have more in common with you regarding child-rearing than I may have with other SAHMs. YOu co-slept, for example and probably spent the same amount of time with your babies as a SAHM who sleep-trained the baby to sleep alone at night. So no, this isn't really a SAHM/WOHM issue. This is more a discussion of how women try to navigate our sexist society and I do think there is more than one way of doing it, and more than one "type" of feminism. Women can choose the path that best suits their political view, their temparament and their life experiences .

Brilliant summing up Sakura. It's not just the two of you by the way, this is a fascinating topic and has really made me sway from one opinion to another several times.

I'm not sure I've ever said what I do on here, but certainly those women in the NE who won equal pay and messed up men's pay rates did the right thing. Dustmen are not better than cleaners or whatever the comparison was. Women drive tube trains in London because that can be better than some "female" jobs. Childcare and cleaning are low paid because any iditiot can do them and they're dull and boring. Whereas running a chain of nurseries or schools or Serco not everyone can do so people are paid more.

Plenty of women set up businesses and if they set up something where pay is low more fool them.

You say antyhing men do... well men clean a lot of toilets in the UK in the home. Men use the vaccuum. Men spend hours every day with their children even in the 60s when I was a child.

What I'd like is there were no male or female jobs. That it's just as likely Cameron and Brown are female as male and that's not just on political or fairness grounds. it's because these jobs can be really really interesting. Surely any woman would rather sit on the board of Tesco than serve on the till?

The market and fees and charges decide what is valuable. Cleaning and child care are fairly cheap as is care for the elderly which of course they would be. So many people have the skills to do that - if you have arms and half a brain you can change the nappy of an 80 year old or baby. It is easier to become a nurse than a leading surgeon hence pay differences. Some women marry very rich men and that's because their own currency is higher - the currency of their looks personality etc etc. and vice versa.

Anyway there speaketh the capitalist femininst and it's fun - it's much more fun to adore your work and your family than sit there feeling guilty and hating your life not having either element right

(Actually I didn't often cosleep - as i have to sleep on my front and I'd put the baby as far away from me as possible near the edge of the bed and it would always worm it's way back over like a piece of metal to a magnet, sweet wet warm thing in its baby gro so I always tried to have them in a carry cot on the floor and other room where possible but yes I do think if you return to work when the baby is 2 weeks old as I did but it's skin on skin from 6 to 10pm and then feeding for hours at night as most normal babies do you have more than enough bonding time btu I don't resent that. Also babies of working parents tend to be up more in the evenings because the parents want to see them although we always wanted a bed time when you nkow the rest of the house is quiet because they've got to bed).

I kind of bowed out of this because Sakura was summing everything up so beautifully! But I do agree with some of what you say Xenia (and I like the image of your babies wriggling towards you).

I just can't agree on the 'wouldn't everyone rather be on the board of Tesco than on the till' approach to this. Your dustmen vs cleaners argument is more relevant I think. Because its not just about high skill vs low skill. Obviously some people have specific skills that need to be rewarded. Its that within those bands of skills (low paid, menial for example), the female jobs are less valued than the males. And it doesn't work just telling women to go and empty the bins rather than clean the floors. Its usually based on something spurious like strength required, as opposed to empathy, social skills etc. that a lot of those low paid caring jobs require and a lot of women have in spades.

Yes, but the women won because they were prepared to go to court. It was brilliant and now male counsel workers are all being paid less and women more. It worked. it's why we need all these equal pay laws.

Absolutely. And thats the point isn't it. That 'women's' work should be valued, not just that women should shy away from it.

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