Trans identifying people gaslight their parents - a heartbreaking read.

[Soontobe60]

www.pittparents.com?utm_source=navbar&utm_medium=web

This broke my heart to read. The impact a child who chooses to declare themselves the opposite sex has on their mother in particular is brutal. I cannot imagine a world where my children would demand that I change my own history to bow to their indoctrination.

@RedToothBrush good points. Trans in the young, especially young women, seems very very rigid. The tufts beards, coloured hair, septum rings, dressing like Kevin and Perry. All desperately trying to be relevant. Families ostracised or forced to go along with the madness.

Money to be made when this fades away and families welcome back their children who have put them through a horrible time all to worship at the altar of trans

Great post, thank you. A perspective I hadn't considered before.

those rights do not include entering women’s spaces - never have, never will.

Urgh, I just watched one of those reels that crop up on Facebook, with a TiM dressed in women's clothes saying how he can't possibly go into the men's toilets dressed like that, and women don't have a problem with him in the ladies'. YES WE FUCKING DO. Besides which, if he really seriously is scared to use a men's space while wearing women's clothes, then DON'T DO IT. IT'S A CHOICE. Many, many women wear trousers just about all the time (that's me unless I'm on a night out), rarely wear makeup (that's also me), but somehow these guys think that they have to wear skirts and lipstick, and then claim they're scared of other men while dressed like that.

We all know that whatever we wear, we are still women. They don't seem to have worked out if they really are women, as they claim, wearing trousers and no makeup won't change that.

They think we are too dim to realise they have a fetish @SwirlyGates and yes why do they all dress so ridiculously.

Men have said they don't care if a feminine presenting bloke is in their loos. Men just piss and leave. TW might get a few funny looks. That's it.
And if TW can't tell who the potentially dangerous men might be in male spaces...well... hello... is the penny dropping...

I guess the TiMs have to say they are unsafe in the men's because there is no other possible excuse they can give people for using the ladies'.

@GreyskySexRealistsky , yes every bloke I’ve asked (DH, DS, DB, several male friends) have all said they might do a double-take if they saw a TIM in the men’s facilities because they’d be a bit surprised, but would just get on with what they’re doing. The vast majority of men don’t beat up or threaten vulnerable men in loos or changing rooms.

And they don't see the irony of telling women who don't want men in their spaces that they are afraid of men.

As a female I do believe gender stereotypes exist as set out by a patriarchal society.

However, as a feminist I rail against those stereotypes because they are seated with insidious misogyny.

As a gender critical person I want to see those stereotypes stripped away.

How I perceive TRAs is that they want to reinforce those stereotypes - which is a disservice to ALL people and, specifically, damaging/dangerous to women. The idea that a penis-haver can ‘feel’ like a woman is so fucking insulting and lacking in so many levels of empathy for the true experience of the majority of women across the world and history it’s, frankly, breathtaking. But, sadly, what many women have come to expect from the class of men.

That a penis-haver is telling women to redefine the noun woman, that our thinking is wrong, that our experience is less relevant…

And then wonder why women don’t want men in our legally acquired single sex spaces. It beggars belief 🤯

Absolutely - as one of the men who posts on here - I have said this a number of times - there are various 'rules' in the gents and one of them is that you basically ignore everyone else...

If a bloke entered dressed as some 'trans women' do I might be surprised - I might even raise an eyebrow (they seldom dress with subtlety!) but I would probably even respect them for being 'themselves' and in such a way as to not intimidate others / invade women's spaces.

There are no stats to demonstrate that a 'trans woman' is any more at risk in the gents than any other man - I have requested those stats and you would assume that if they existed it would bolster their argument - but nope - silence...

And if a man is so inward-looking / self-centered that they consider using women's spaces okay - then they certainly would not have the sensitivity to realise how their presence impacts on the women whose space they are invading - so even less reason to want them there...

You don't need to create a new label for yourself in order to express your preferences. And no-one is totally conforming with gender expectations. We are all a mixture of character traits and personal preferences.

This 'identity' you talk of sounds very much like a performance; a role. And all performances are at some distance from the actual person. A role is something that is assumed and rehearsed. What you seem to be asking is that we all engage in 'Make Believe' - a bit like the contestants, and the audience ( if only for a few moments) on 'Star In their Eyes'.

It is not just 'gender critical feminists' that understand the reality of sex and can recognise it instinctively.Most people can and do. If men want to perform femininity nobody is stopping them ( not in our society, anyway; and as long as they abide by the rules of social decency and appropriateness that we all have to adhere to). It is the unnecessary addition of the special claims of having somehow having changed sex, along with the 'special' pronouns that is the issue.

If people want to perform 'gender' then they can. But we don't up-end and dismantle the protections afforded to other people on the basis of their sex - in order to accommodate them. It really is not all about you/the individual and your/their special, unique, true self.

We all know many men have now become emboldened to express very publicly their private fantasies and their fetishes in the name of this sort of special identity. I'm always amazed that some women proclaim not to see this. Why?

It is not always that overt. I recall an article in a local newspaper about about a young/pubertal teenage boy who had come out as ' trans'. His father ( a single parent to the boy) was a tough, macho, kick-boxing, cage fighting, martial arts 'meat head'. You can well imagine the social taboo the boy must have felt being brought up in that sort of world - in coming out as gay.

Though, as it turned out he could well have come out as gay and his father would still have loved and embraced him - but instead he'd assumed the trendy 'trans' identity that was circulating in his social circle/on-line.I hope that now he is a bit older he has come to terms with his sexuality and has stopped with the pretence, and certainly hope he never got as far as puberty blockers and cross sex hormones.

perform femininity

So which is it men & women share behavioural traits or they suddenly don't now because 'men' are only 'pretending'/performing femininity?

Something stinks of eau de patriachy here.

Thought experiment.

Gender stereotypes are different across cultures.

In PP's (ad infinitum, across endless threads and usernanes) fantasy world where "everyone" understands and accepts that "woman" and "man" mean a personal preference for one set of gendered stereotypes over the other rather than anything to do with physical sex...

If a "woman" (of either sex) from one culture goes on holiday to a place with different gender stereotypes, is she still a woman while she is there or is she something else?

Should she expect to be treated as a "woman" because that is her culture even in a place where the local culture says she is not?

Seems like any time you look close up at PP's theoretical assertions of how the world works and try to fit that into reality and practice, it is incredibly clear the world doesn't, amd indeed cannot, work that way at all.

Feminity is a word I associate with the stereotypes not the innate femaleness of a female which I think makes sense of the previous post

the perform the stereotypes because they can’t be a woman

That's an odd take on the purpose of a liberal democracy. It actually sounds more like the standard youthful urge to rebel against 'the establishment'/status quo. And. even then 'rebelling against the staus quo' has always been a right of passage in liberal democracies. It is how identity forms, and how one discovers where the boundaries are. And there always are boundaries whether one likes it or not. We all have limits and restrictions of one type or other imposed upon us.

A liberal democracy is not just about an individual's "right to be themselves" - it is about a balance, and about recognising the limits of one's own desires in recognition that others also have rights and desires. The Equality Act was borne out of this recognition - and it affords protections to certain groups based on their particular requirements, and a measure of protection against known risks, difficulties and potential harms.

When anyone plays up to a role they are performing. Women can 'perform femininity' too, and Men can 'perform masculinity'. Nobody is doubting that sex based expectations and roles exist - but what people are saying is that these roles and expectations are not the basis of one's sex. They are extrapolations. conceptual, detached. Performances.

Sex is biological and biology has its own imperatives which impact upon us all to greater or lesser degrees.

It's odd isn't it that there are no statistics of TIMs being harrassed or attacked in men's facilities but lots of them being harassed (whatever they mean by that) in women's facilities. Makes you wonder why they persist in putting themselves into such dreadful danger.

So billions of people have no individual agency except a few oh so wise in the know 'sex realists' who just so happen to obsess over trans people incessantly & as such aren't in any way slaves to reactionary moral panics. Got it.

When someone uses a phrase like "obsess over trans people incessantly" they've well and truly lost the argument, I'm afraid. Not that you didn't lose it a long time ago. But hyperbolic phrases like that show you have nothing.

I remember (feminine-presenting male) Fionne Orlander on Twitter years ago saying that he uses men’s spaces. A man in a pub loo said to him: ‘Did you realise this is the bloke’s loo?’ And Fionne replied ‘Yes, I am a bloke’ and everyone just got on with having a piss. No hassle, no violence.

Men in men’s spaces are average men. A few of them will be nasty or violent, because a proportion of all men are nasty or violent. But men in women’s spaces are not average men. They have already crossed a boundary by entering women’s spaces, and I take that to mean they are far more likely to be the nasty/dangerous type of man.

You are putting all emphasis on "personal agency". As if individual choice and preference is the primary human value, and the only matter for consideration.
We all have agency, to greater or lesser degrees depending on our society and/or culture.

Biology has its own set of imperatives - imperatives that go beyond the individual and their personal preferences, and they effect us and shape our experience in different ways. Some of these ways are purely physical/hormonal as a result of the hard drive/program ( puberty, menstruatiion, pregnancy, menopause, genetic - inherited illnesses and conditions and their various manifestations, egg and sperm production, sex drive, agressive instinct and so on), and some of them are mediated by or interplay with social and cultural factors.

Billions the world over are sex realists, it the few oh so dumb in the West who are clutching their pearls and having the vapours.
Literal genocide - seriously what sane person sees that.
Committing suicide in their thousands - shroud waving coercion.
The most marginalised in the whole world - there are 8 billion people in the world who don't know they exist.

Many men can, at first glance, appear feminine. This is even more true in some venues, such as rock and alternative clubs, where gender presentation is blurred. They have been getting on with using men's spaces for years with no ill effects.

In addition, TRAs (including some on this thread) advocate for transmen to use men's spaces including toilets. Many of these transmen are obviously female (indeed, another of this thread's contributors has detailed the feminine presentation of a transman close to them) yet don't appear to be being routinely assaulted either for being actually female or for being trans.

Yes, and it is the boundaries that most trans activists seem to be struggling with. They want unfettered personal freedom - with no concern for others at all, and no recognition that you cannot always have want you want, or that life doesn't usually conform to your idealistic concepts.