Trans identifying people gaslight their parents - a heartbreaking read.

[Soontobe60]

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This broke my heart to read. The impact a child who chooses to declare themselves the opposite sex has on their mother in particular is brutal. I cannot imagine a world where my children would demand that I change my own history to bow to their indoctrination.

The parent's narrative doesnt have to change. They had a daughter who transitioned. That is a factual narrative. What they don't get to do is cry over photos of their daughter in dresses with their now adult child next to them.

A surgeon in Scotland amputated healthy limbs from some healthy patients before he was told he wasn’t allowed.

People do have unnecessary cosmetic surgery on their healthy bodies. I don’t think it’s something that mentally healthy people do. It’s certainly not something the NHS should pay for; and it generally doesn’t. Yet it does pay for ‘gender affirming’ cosmetic surgeries for people with trans identities. I’ve no idea why.

Why indeed? In some cases it happens if a woman has had surgery for cancer so it’s to reconstruct what’s been removed. For others it’s vanity and as such is not available on the NHS. There are many unscrupulous cosmetic surgeons who will do anything for money - one look at Pete Burns or Katie Price will show you that.

GI is a political construct, it has no validity,

And yet gender critical feminism is premised on sex stereotypes needing to be abolished. You might need a word with them since what they are fighting against 'doesn't exist'.

You're confusing Gender Identity and Gender.

As a gender critical feminist, I see gender as the collection of external pressures and expectations society imposes on people because of their sex. Our sex is why women are oppressed in a patriarchal society and gender is how we are oppressed.

Gender identity is a political construct that claims all people have an inate sense of which gender expectations should apply to us. It further claims that there are 'cis' women and men whose gender identity and biological sex line up, and 'trans' men and women who find them in conflict.

You really seem unable to recognise that the mother is a person in her own right.

This is the heart of all of it isn't it?

For all the "just let trans people be, they know who they are better than you, what right have you to say who someone else is" rhetoric, the whole damn belief system is basically just looking at other people and saying "I think you are all a certain type of person and I'll name myself as like you or not based on that belief, and everyone else including you has to agree, or at least pretend to agree, that my categories and my beliefs about you and how you think and feel are the true ones"

I mean I’d argue it’s the family being neglectful and abusive, necessitating the removal, that does the harm, more so than the alienation (which is wholly justified in the vast majority of cases). And no, kids aren’t being taken into care because their parents don’t affirm their trans identity.

This.

Are you going to trot this out every time you don’t have a cohesive argument ?

You are correct that a rational connection is needed to identify as something - which is why no-one can identify as the opposite sex - because it is not rational, because you can never be the opposite sex, as you yourself admit above:

"Nobody is saying reproductive sex can be changed."

So, I am glad that you agree that it is impossible to identify as the opposite sex.
So, what then is Trans? You admit that sex can not be changed, and you admit that you can't identify as something where you have no rational connection, so that means that a man can never be a woman, and a man can never identify as a woman...

You surely can't be thinking that wearing a dress or high heels is enough to identify as a woman - that is the most basic of errors in this game of pretence...

I think though that I might identify as the King of England - our family would consider theirs to be newcomers, I play polo, have fly-fished and shot, happy wearing tartan and striding across the moors with a dog at my heels - I have more rational connection with the King of England than any man can ever have with pretending to be a woman!

How do we tell who is delusional and who isn't when it comes to trans identity?

Careful now, you’re going to tie yourself in knots. We’re talking about someone who is in denial about the reality of their sex taking steps to draw bystanders into their fantasy. Not someone who chooses a nickname that could be male or female.

I havnt read the article but this discussion reminds me of the really heartbreaking scene in the kardashians where kris says to caitlyn ‘were we ever married’ when she (Caitlin) tells kris that she has changed her birth certificate. This was an erasure of Bruce, her husband and the father of her children and everything they shared. I know the Kardashian’s is a pretty vapid show but the look on both their faces at the impact of those words is really powerful. I think it’s the first time that Caitlin really sees it from another perspective

You know what I've noticed? You guys are the harsh ones. Where is your sympathy for this Mother? Do you not allow yourselves any room to imagine that this is a loss that some people cannot accept as a positive? That a large majority of trans people appear to be sad and lonely and angry and isolated, and perhaps a Mother doesn't want that for her beautiful child? That it is more natural for a Mother to grieve for this loss than it is to deny the reality of your birth sex? That this poor daughter is so unhappy with the reality of being female that she intends to live the rest of her life in a complex, impossible to manage, lie? You show no curiosity, no empathy, just a harsh half- baked theory that the Mother is controlling and can't accept that her child apparently has agency. I'm sorry, I see very little agency in falling into this ideology, but lots of ideologically driven cheerleaders on the sidelines telling kids lies.

It’s possible. Parents are often not well placed to determine what type of childhood their children experienced. And dysfunctional takes many forms. There are the deliberately abusive, the overwhelmed, the parents still trying to work through their own trauma, the ‘too busy’. It may be easier for some parents not to examine too closely why their child feel the way they do.

Good question, and that's not something I agree with either.

except they haven't
they still have a daughter (pretending to be male)
who hasn't transitioned (because you can't)

and they will be upset at the deceit and lies, the gaslighting and pretence - not the loss of what used to be...

Its a funny kind of love where one's own biases over rule their relationships.

At the very least I would expect some modicum of curiosity, steel manning or openness to the opposing position. But maybe she's just not built for it.

Maybe its not so much she doesn't love her child but just can't or doesn't know how to. What has she actually done to fight for this relationship in terms of understanding? I know if it were me I would break my neck to understand why.

Talk is cheap, deeds matter.

You're the one who said that mum calling Tanya Tom is affirming that it's possible to change sex and that people who just change their names tend to use one associated with their gender. So if Charlie is neither a male nor female name (as it could be either Charles or Charlotte) and your child says they want to be called Charlie, would you refuse or not?
Anyway, everyone has choices. You can choose to refuse to use someone's preferred name, they can choose to not see you. I guess it depends on what makes you feel best.

And yet the mother is expected to buy into it.
Try and keep up.

Thank God for people like you who are brave enough for honesty like this.

1 a none answer

2 no such thing as 'gender critical' feminism, there is only one type of feminism, that which is concerned with the problems faced by the female person. It's right there in the name.

3 Plenty of 'trans' are saying that they can change sex. All of them are men of course.

4 does Hallmark do a card for that, when you love your child you want to stop them from self harming, to protect them from lying nihilistic ideology's that want to lead them into a life of pain, drug dependence, and delusion, any mother who does not do that doesn't love their child at all, let alone unconditionally.

But that adult child next to them, what are they allowed to do? Anything that suits themselves, it seems.

When young people transition, whilst the decision to transition and ‘gender distress’ might be sudden and seem to come from nowhere, the vast majority have a significant history of distress - eating disorders, mood disorders, self harm etc.

Parents of children with a history of significant mental illness often find it hard to let go and often do seek more control than parents whose children have had good health. They have feared for their children’s lives, seen their children engage in self destructive behaviour and their intervention has been life saving. When their children make a good recovery, the parents can take decades to feel as thought they can ‘stand down’. They saw their children go from being healthy and thriving to being desperately and dangerously mentally unwell. Seeing them thriving again doesn’t provide reassurance that they won’t all experience the horrors again.

Im just posting this to try and expand some of the hypothesising about parents who are ‘overly controlling’ and have difficulties ‘letting go’. It is the case that in some cases, this is underpinned by personality traits. But sometimes, this is because of past vulnerabilities and behaviours arising that can be understood through a different (and worrying lens) when childhood history is known.

It can be frustrating and upsetting for adult children to have their parents viewing their current behaviours through then lens of the past. Especially if they are well. However, it can be life saving when they do this and the young person is unwell.

No.
They still have a biological daughter.
You can't transition into anything.
She's not a fucking Transformer.

Well, which is it?

Is it that men and women can all have any personality? I'm assuming that's what you mean by the "psychological interchangeabilty between men & women that manifests in socially non conforming gendered expressions".

Or is it that a man who thinks he has a womanly personality is actually a woman?