Taskmaster: if you don’t use ‘correct’ pronouns you’re a philistine…

[Sugarleaf]

…Who’s stuck in the past. To be ‘cool and curious’ you need to use non- biological sex based pronouns. And this is about a ‘certain generation.’ I mean I’m 32 and think it’s bollocks.

plus, as a bonus, ‘if you don’t like me, fine, as long as you use my correct pronouns.’

ffs

Another thought I've had (again this is because I don't perhaps understand it)...
If Chloe wants a gender-neutral title, why not a gender-neutral name?

I agree with you that this comes down to social convention.

Do you agree that social convention isn’t something any of us can decree into existence? That different groups can develop their own social conventions that don’t travel well to other groups and don’t create obligations on them?

And also that even where there is a widespread social convention we should usually give space for those who don’t want to go along, and that this itself is central to true diversity and inclusion?

Maybe read the thread to find out the context of that quote.

Sex and gender mean two different things, but they can't define gender.

Gender apparently "isn't" lots of things, but they can never define what it is. Of course what it is, is stereotypes, but they can't say that out loud because their whole argument would collapse.

Sex is real.
Gender is bollocks.

If so, why do people who claim to have changed “gender” demand to use spaces designated for the opposite sex? Surely they would just use the mixed gender single spaces relevant to their sex?

I had hoped for something more...er...A-Team related

Problem is the social convention of respecting another's choices despite not agreeing with them has long been broadly decreed into existence.

And also that even where there is a widespread social convention we should usually give space for those who don’t want to go along, and that this itself is central to true diversity and inclusion?

Of course, there's no obligation to be polite just as there's no obligation to socially include the impolite in social circles.

At work? That can border on discriminatory harassment & employers rightfully don't care for conflict particularly if it affects their bottom line.

I've read it. I don't want the "context", I want an answer.

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elu_(Portuguese_pronoun)

That's because sex and gender are two different things when genderists want to make a distinction between them.

Sex and gender are the same when a bloke in a dress wants to use the women's loos.

Anyone who thinks that men can be women is unlikely to be making sense about anything.

The queer argument is that sex and gender are different.

Gender is someone's inner feelings and its rude/disrespectful/philistine not to acknowledge their gender, and its rude/disrespectful to acknowledge their sex.

Its the last point that is never explained.

This is a gender neutral pronoun. The problem I have is that the Chinese, bigoted fuckers that they are, persist in using gender neutral pronouns for me and it’s injuring my binary soul!

The point is language can change it isn't as fixed as you presume it to be.

The other one is 'we know better now'.
It comes over as being excruciatingly supercilious. Especially if it quickly becomes obvious that the person in question is nothing like as well informed as you are.

These are irrelevant examples and they are not comparable.

They refer to social situations and they can and often are ignored with no person suffering negative repercussions if they don’t do this.

They do not, however, refer to a specific reference term that has had its meaning destabilised by an individual’s personal and philosophical belief.

Next will you be posting that a male person describing himself as a ‘woman’ or a ‘female’ has no negative impact on female people individually and collectively. And that a male person’s identity belief that they are female is based on a ‘coherent’ explanation?

I don’t mind her as an indivisible but rolling my eyes at her pronouns bullshit. Also if she’s a she/they why would she be bothered at being called she? I find they themming very tiresome and performative. I was also glad when Bella left Traitors for the same reason. The verbal gymnastics to try and pretend these obvious females aren’t women is tedious

If you have to tell someone what your “correct pronouns” are that probably means they are actually not the correct pronouns for your sex!
Like the bloke at work who thinks long hair and pink trainers means everyone should know to call him she/her.

ps it is not a “certain generation” thing, my 15 year old DD and her classmates are so over this nonsense. This would be met with eye rolls and comments of “cringe”

And if language being used by one group is a destabilised version of the established language that the population knows and understands, then communication fails.

Rendering language reference terms meaningless does not happen without a significant evidenced knowledge shift. And operating ahead of the evidence supporting a shift is not a common occurrence.

However, what probably is accurate is to say that some groups may demand society act as if language has changed meaning, and for a short time it may even seem like it changed. But it will generally revert if that promised evidence is not forthcoming.

So, indeed, ‘some’ language may change but so too the changed language reverts again.

So because “Very British Problems” exists as a meme, we need to start pretending men can be women and alter a fundamental element of the English language?!

I’ve heard it all now 🤣🤣🤣

The idea that mouthing words destabilises belief is ludicrous. You act as if humans don't have the capacity to hold two different thoughts in their heads at once. Politeness has no proven magical link to destabilising beliefs & to suggest so is delusional.

You try telling them that!

(I do agree that language shifts. I just see the idea that we get to choose our own pronouns as a niche belief and practice, which is fine, but that imposing that on others is the illiberal step, not the liberal one).

I didn't realise the Absent Commas and the Overused Ampersand were playing here today.

Disappointingly derivative so far though...

So do I have to eat the brisket or not?

I can honestly say I've had no hostility. In the early days I said, "I prefer Ms, if that's ok" And it was not a problem. There was the occasional "joke" but nothing offensive. I was never aggressive about that and the kids I taught called me Miss or Mrs and I wasn't snarky enough to correct them, they were only little.

I took my husbands name because I didn't have the courage in the early 70s to keep my own. He wasn't fussed either way. A few years later, I'd have kept it.

I'm quite a laid back feminist in many ways but get very annoyed about certain causes. I was born a woman, I have no penis and the correct hormones for my birth state. That makes me a woman. When I wear trousers, which I nearly always do, I don't feel like a bloke. Neither do I identify as one.

I believe in a woman's right to choose and men need to stay out of the argument. No uterus? Not your business.

I raised money for women's refuges when they were just an idea. I still support them and there is no place for penises in them, unless on children.

My elder son told his teacher I was a radical feminist and he was pleasantly surprised to find I'm quite sociable.

I am pretty radical about certain causes but I always try to argue nicely because that seems to work better.

Not always though. I have been known, when infuriated by misogyny, to lose my cool loudly. DH has been known to turn into a cringing Basil Fawlty when my hackles start rising.

Sorry for the essay.

Words become established meaning by broad usage so its just the opposite of an imposition. In other words, the more people use a word the more it becomes popular meaning & given the younger generation dictate the future evolution of language, gender pronouns are here for now. Not to mention the arc of history bends towards liberalism & by extension self determination.