Taskmaster: if you don’t use ‘correct’ pronouns you’re a philistine…

[Sugarleaf]

…Who’s stuck in the past. To be ‘cool and curious’ you need to use non- biological sex based pronouns. And this is about a ‘certain generation.’ I mean I’m 32 and think it’s bollocks.

plus, as a bonus, ‘if you don’t like me, fine, as long as you use my correct pronouns.’

ffs

Amazing! I think you're brilliant!
I'm a Ms MyName (married) and I've had "Your husband is a simp/You're disrespecting your husband/you don't love your husband/you're legally a Mrs(!) etc.
I am unapologetically a feminist which some women have suggested they feel threatened by (which I don't understand if I'm honest).
I am really concerned that women are being erased and don't want to be a part of that. Example: I went for my routine HPV screen the other day (formerly a smear test), and the info inviting me read: "People with a cervix".

So on one hand you’re saying just being polite doesn’t affect people’s beliefs, but on the other hand repetitive use of words in a different context - in this case pronouns changing to mean men can be women - gradually evolves the meaning of those words over time.

So it’s not just “polite” is it? It’s something that fundamentally changes the meaning of words. You’re acknowledging that using wrong sex pronouns is a way of changing their meaning to suit your beliefs.

It’s just not going to happen mate. We aren’t going to let it and the younger generation thinks it’s all a load of bollocks too.

I see.

And around we go in yet another cycle.

Where reference words magically can mean the opposite at the same time as the evidenced supported terms and apparently communication is completely impacted and clear.

And that male people don’t have to have any female referenced experience to claim the use of the use of the female terminology, them just ‘recognising’ themselves using that descriptor is all that is required. No need for material reality or even logical coherence.

oh. That is right. Incoherent = coherent so anyone can use those words and people can apply their own definitions.

Good to know.

Wow, finally a substantive argument however flawed that's an achievement! Well done.

But you are totally confused. Understanding the definition of a word doesn't mean you believe the phenomena that underpins it exists. Lots of people understand the definition of trans but don't necessarily agree the phenomena has legitimacy just like a lot of people understand what the word stress or depression means but still think these are non existent conditions.

Again, you act as if the brain can't hold two different thoughts at once.

For the billionth time, sex & gender are two totally different concepts. Him/her can be both referencing sex or gender & that makes obvious sense given both cis & trans women exist.

Again, you act as if the brain can't hold two different thoughts at once.

Can you explain sex/gender to children while maintaining safeguarding?

I would like to hear exactly how you would do this.

How would a child know that its wrong if Eddie izzard is in a female space, but its ok when Ellen Page is? How would you explain that chloe is a 'them' and is allowed to be in a female space, but a male 'them' isnt?

Children aren't 'unsafe' from learning about diversity in humans only from people who think they shouldn't.

Ive edited my post since you replied.

Can you explain to me how you would explain this bit of safeguarding to children? How can we explain that its wrong for men to be in women's spaces when its wrong to call these men men?

So you’re saying it doesn’t matter if some people don’t believe that “she” means a man who is a woman, those people can believe what they want but the word’s meaning has changed around them.

There’s an entire appendix at the end of Nineteen Eighty Four about just that.

Again, you act as if the brain can't hold two different thoughts at once.

Oh I understand this completely. You are simultaneously holding the idea in your head that you’re passing this off as a simple act of “politeness” while at the same time relishing in the idea that our defence will somehow “die out”. You’ve argued for gender identity beliefs for a very long time, it’s clear your “politeness” argument is just a front.

How would you explain that chloe is a 'them' and is allowed to be in a female space, but a male 'them' isnt?

How indeed.

For the billionth time, sex & gender are two totally different concepts. Him/her can be both referencing sex or gender

If I use sex based pronouns for all people then I'm not discriminating against trans people by dint of using sex based pronouns regardless of whether people are trans or not. Im not misgendering anyone because I'm referencing their sex not their gender and they are two different things

Surely what’s ‘died out’ is the whole idea that ‘politeness’ overrides boundaries and consent. Unless @sweetnsourr is trying to take us back to more deferential times.

In your belief maybe. But cis is also a meaningless term considering it is used to describe male athletes with DSDs. I can quote people on MN telling us this.

So cis is a repurposed term that is effectively meaningless and it requires someone to believe in gender identity theory for it to gain any meaning for humans at all.

i think this thread below will be useful for some posters who want to see further and recent discussion

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5590317-the-kind-of-girl-that-a-boy-who-identifies-as-a-girl-thinks-he-is?page=1

I reckon just to a recent thread.

Its particularly meaningless when you have men like India Willoughby describing themselves as a cis woman

Chloe will have an easy time convincing the people around her that concealing her sex is progressive and positive.

After all the comedy circuit is dominated by men and the media in general has an appalling track record in ignoring safeguarding.

Or maybe her profession has convinced Chloe that concealing her sex is progressive and positive? Who knows.

But its harder to convince women on a parenting site that its positive. Its easy to explain away queer theory to the media who are focused only on profit, than to women who need to keep their children safe.

Saw Chloe recently in a comedy thing and she's excellent. Best one on Taskmaster too. Pretty sure she introduced herself as a massive lesbian. So I don't really get why she denies her sex.

She's a masc-presenting woman and that's great. Lean into that. Being born the female sex does not mean you need to dress in any way at all. So push the boundaries of that. Why go for a different pronoun? What does it actually achieve?

They/them pronouns make conversations so confusing. There was a contestant recently on Traitors that the presenter was speaking about describing the contestant as “they/them” and I kept thinking the presenter was talking about a group of people rather than that particular contestant. It makes no sense in normal conversation at all.

If you go to "View history" on Chloe's Wikipedia article and then click on "oldest" it will show you that the page was created in 2024 by a user called Funcrunch. If you click on Funcrunch it takes you to their user page, which gives you a link to their personal website. Click on the link and it says in big letters that they (Funcrunch) are trans and use they/them pronouns. The first version of the page said that Chloe uses she/her and they/them pronouns but the page was actually written using "she". At a subsequent stage someone has changed "she" to "they" which I find makes it less easy to read.

I identify as a philistine, 'I don't know much about Art but I know what I like', I'm an old school philistine, and ever since the Tate's pile of bricks, I have zero interest or appreciation for anything the intelligentsia claim to be 'art'.
Literature is not worth the price of a book nowadays, it's all full of angst and tedious personal expose, it's all kitchen sink drama on steroids.
Intellectual pursuits nowadays usually means navel gazing claptrap.
So I'll happily accept the slur philistine.

Was it she or the OP that used the term 'Philistine' I wonder?

If you were looking for an example of the condescending, de haut en bas, know-it-all, pretentious, snobby, disrespectful style of post I mentioned upthread, here's a humdinger!

Positively oooozes condescension, doesn't it?

Of course the term. 'Philistine' has become synonymous with suggesting someone is unspohisticated and primitive. The Philistines were a middle eastern tribe who fought with the Israelites at the time of King David, and from where the region and area now referred to as Palestine originated. 'Phoenicia' is modern day Lebanon.

Ironically this is the least fun group. Her stupidity is just part of the dullness