Dr Upton in the news again

[Sparkyduchess]

I see the lovely Dr Upton is in the news again, who didn’t see this coming 🙄

i feel for the woman facing this, and troubling that she was worried she’d be bullied into accepting treatment from him

https://www.dailymail.com/news/article-16235793/Doctor-quit-UK-Peggie-trans-row-centre-gender-storm-Australia-known-Lis.html

I see.

You really do have quite a narrow experience of Australian hospitals.

I was a toddler a long time ago, that doesn’t change the fact that my family still access that hospital and that I have a very different perception to you about what is a ‘tiny’ hospital. And 200-300 beds is not ‘tiny’ unless you are seeking to dismiss the significance of what may have occurred there.

I am not playing ‘who has best knowledge of Australia’. However, I am questioning now why you have persisted in referring to a regional hospital as ‘tiny’. Your sense of size seems very off.

John Hunter is also a major teaching facility attached to a very reputable university and servicing a very densely populated region. I also don't know how you consider Newcastle not to be a major city of NSW. But well, perhaps you don’t consider Lambton to be servicing Newcastle, the Hunter and the immediate central coast between Sydney and Newcastle, then I get I now can take your statements about size to be indicative.

For some reason you sought to dismiss this incident. Fine. But in doing so you are showing that you really don’t seem to show much understanding of hospital services in rural Australia at this point.

The thing is, I don’t think chaperoning makes all that much difference.

It will thankfully prevent direct abuse and assault. It will not prevent harm where being treated by a male person when a female person is needed.

@Helleofabore

I am not playing ‘who has best knowledge of Australia’. However, I am questioning now why you have persisted in referring to a regional hospital as ‘tiny’. Your sense of size seems very off.
John Hunter is also a major teaching facility attached to a very reputable university and servicing a very densely populated region. I also don't know how you consider Newcastle not to be a major city of NSW. But well, perhaps you don’t consider Lambton to be servicing Newcastle, the Hunter and the immediate central coast between Sydney and Newcastle, then I get I now can take your statements about size to be indicative.
For some reason you sought to dismiss this incident. Fine. But in doing so you are showing that you really don’t seem to show much understanding of hospital services in rural Australia at this point.

This is getting really weird at this point.

To compare PM Hospital to John Hunter, yes, it is small. You take issue, then, with “Lambton to be servicing Newcastle … etc”. Do you live there? Are you aware that Lambton is a suburb of Newcastle? Or did you just copy and paste some statement you found on a web page?

Newcastle is a city of NSW, but not the capital city. In my post, I wrote “ohn Hunter isn’t even located in a major city, but draws patients from a number of regional areas,” meaning it is a tertiary hospital for a number of regions NOT located in the capital city.

My first post was only pointing out that generally patients cannot request female doctors in the ED in Australia. This seems to be a flaw in the article. Take it or leave it, but there’s no need to keep poking at me in this way.

@Helleofabore thanks for your insights, they are always appreciated.

Australia does seem to have fucked up over this. There is bound to be a crunch time. I thought it would be sport. But I think a man served up to you when you've requested a female, in a hospital of all places, would be just as pivotal.

Unfortunately for the women in the hospital, but fortunately for the cause in general, Upton is arrogant enough to force the issue. It was presumably the reason he moved to Australia in the first place.

And it certainly does look like the Mail is very definitely keeping an eye on him. I can't see many women, or their husbands for that matter, thinking it's okay to be told you'll get a female doctor, and Upton showing up. And you're not supposed to say anything.

I have lived in NSW for decades and will likely do so again . I have also visited Newcastle many many times. I know where Lambton is. You were the one declaring Newcastle was not a ‘major city.’ Perhaps you mispoke and meant ‘capital’ city? Because in my book, Newcastle is a major city of NSW hence it has a teaching hospital and is large.

It is getting weird because you made it weird by dismissing a regional hospital as ‘tiny’ as if they would not have a female doctor available for a patient who asked specifically for one.

No having a witness to it almost makes it worse. That's two people who can't say anything.

You commented that the hospital was ‘tiny’ as if it should not be expected to have a suitable mix of male and female doctors available.

It seems to me that it was you trying to dismiss and hand wave the issue away. You did it using minimisation that was inaccurate and misleading.

This is so.

We have seen here how the chaperone is likely facing pressure to allow something to happen when a patient has been specific or lose their livelihood.

You commented that the hospital was ‘tiny’ as if it should not be expected to have a suitable mix of male and female doctors available.

But also it’s so busy there couldn’t possibly time to accommodate such a request even if there was a female doctor available.

Port Macquarie Base Hospital obviously has Schrödinger’s Emergency Department.

The thing is, every time the issue of requesting a female doctor arises, we have people saying you can't be guaranteed a female doctor, like some kind of gotcha.

Everyone knows you can't just magic medical staff out of the air, so it's well understood.

But that doesn't stop women being able to request it. And in this case request it, being told you're going to get it, and getting a man instead.

And, albeit anecdotally on here, when women do request a female doctor, they do generally get it. There aren't that many women who request it.

The whole thing is a nightmare. Dupers delight with two witnesses.

yep

And happening also in capital city hospitals in some states of Australia where the policy is that if a female staff member is requested, the hospital policy is to allow a male person to do the procedure if he has a transgender identity.

It seems to be an issue that needs Federal clarification and state action

the article says

Her family claim that fears she would be ‘bullied’ into accepting the 6ft doctor as female meant her husband refused to leave her bedside.

I'm not saying that it is beyond the scope of possibility that either family member or the Daily Mail are wrong, but the article specifically says that she was asked to accept the doctor as female.

I have never set foot in Australia and know nothing about the legal process, but, to use an analogy, I assume that a tiny hospital in Australia might not have the full range of food options, but would be honest with patients about whether food is vegan/halal/kosher/gluten free etc and not insist that a cheese and ham sandwich did actually meet all dietary requirements?

Absolutely these are very dangerous men. Not the harmless individuals that they are being made out to be.

We know men will push boundaries, we know they will exploit weaknesses (J Saville as example) he used being eccentric as a disguise to open doors to abuse.

I was doing no such thing.

I live in the area. My grandmother died in that hospital. I’m well aware of its size. The ED often struggles with long wait times.

Just because I said female doctors can’t be requested in the ED doesn’t mean OH SHIT BAD FAITH. Stop attacking me please.

Yes, I agree it's not the ideal solution. There are many male doctors who know they're not good with procedures with women patients in Australia - you can go to doctors' dinners and hear stories where they frankly admit they're bad at it - one or two I know, even left particular areas of practice because they knew they were hopeless there - but the reality is mostly that they still end up doing those procedures, since waiting for a woman doctor just is not an option.

No one is attacking you.

People have pointed out that you have used inaccurate reference terms and are keen to dismiss the possibility that there is a significant issue is a female doctor cannot be found. Presenting context that will indicate you may be mistaken is not attacking you.

I know there is sometimes not much option.

No one is attacking you.

Don't post, if you can't cope with your posts being analysed.

Just appreciating a situation where @Helleofabore, of all people, is being called out on an inability to fully corral details :)

If you only knew who I actually am IRL and where I live, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. It’s honestly bizarre.

I am not “keen” to dismiss anything. Why skew what has been written?

Out of interest. My nearest London hospital is 350-400 beds and the next nearest is 400 - 450. Both with A&E.

At what size do we consider it is ok for a hospital to not have both male and female doctors available when a patient requests a specific sex of doctor?

It's always interesting how hard some posters will work to make this into another and more comfortable issue.

The hospital is tiny
Female doctors can't be guaranteed
It's unreasonable to want a female doctor.
Chaperones

It always suggests that to face the real issue would be too uncomfortable to discuss. The real issue is that a woman was told she could have a female hcp, so her wish and need was respected and this was fully in the staff's belief they could provide, AND THEN a man who identifies as a woman was sent to her as 'a female hcp' due to his personal identity beliefs. So this was intentional: that a man with a gender identity is counted as being actually female when a patient expresses that wish.

So the intent was to either deceive the patient and hope she wouldn't know (a bit forlorn hope really) or to expect that a woman would 'respect' the man's identity above her own reasons and needs expressed for a same sex hcp.

This entirely privileges the man's choices, feelings and self expression above anything regarding the woman patient he has power over and responsibility for. It cannot be that hospital staff do not understand the needs or reasons why women may wish for same sex care. Or the vulnerability of putting a woman in a position of having to say 'no, you're a man'. Or the distress it may cause that woman to be confronted with a male intent on making her join an illusion he is female when her body knows he is male. It puts politics above patient care, it destroys trust (as seen by the husband then feeling he could not leave her), and it entirely disregards the whole concept of informed consent.

I'd think if she chooses to take this to court, she's probably got him. Activists arguing that the woman's needs and feelings are just prejudice is basically 'his stuff matters and should be accepted without question but hers shouldn't'. And this is straight forward medical consent and a patient, not an employer managing colleagues this time.

Chaperones don't change the situation for a woman who has asked for a same sex hcp and has been told yes, you can have one, with an attempt to then deceive / mess with consent by sending a biological male in the illusion or political requirement to pretend that he is female.

Why cannot a professional, supposedly interested in patient care and inclusion, accept that some patients are not for him to express his identity on?

He said at the employment tribunal that he would do this. None of us should be surprised. Sadly I suspect the Australian legal system is so profoundly TiMAW that there's no chance of a successful legal case for his victim.

Until the tide turns, which it will.