The kind of “girl” that a boy who identifies as a girl thinks he is

[MyAmpleSheep]

How do people who celebrate the transitioning of five year old children know that the kind of girl a boy who identities as a “girl” identifies as is the same kind of girl that a girl who identifies as a “girl” is?

Other than than from what he sees girls doing, how can a boy “know” what being a girl is, to be sure he is one?

is it posited that there is an innate sense of boy:girl that exists outside of the experience of seeing and being the presence of others?

If a child was “raised by wolves”, could they be trans? If that child had a male body and reached the age of 20 never having seen or met or known of the existence of women is it possible for them to grow up with dysphoria? When eventually discovering the other sex would they suddenly recognize “they had been born in the wrong body”?

Looking on the bright side @MyAmpleSheep, Lacksie has provided an answer to your original question. The sort of girl that a boy thinks he is is a neurocognitive one.

He claimed to be somatically female

Yes… I’m not sure that helps, frankly.

It's as helpful as anything else that the superposter suggested. I.e. totally useless.

I found Ruble's work interesting. It didn't support any of the poster's assertions though. I was genuinely surprised that they couldn't see that.

I thought Robin said he was somatically a woman. Because of hormones and surgery.

I just want to point out a concerning dynamic that is right there for people to see for themselves. I might have missed anyone referring to it, and if I am repeating something, please ignore me.

It is noticeable the punishment / reward dynamic when you witness it.

Disagree - derision, sneering, jeering and insults.
Agree - love hearts

It may not be intentional, but it is there.

Oh please. I haven't been sneering, jeering and insulting people for disagreeing with me. I've repeatedly engaged in discussion and taken a long time to answer people's questions thoughtfully.

People have been incredibly personal , rude , hostile and sneering towards me. I have done my very best to be polite.

Im allowed to disagree with you. The ideological rigidity and lack of tolerance for diversity of opinion / bullying on these boards is quite shocking.

I hope mumsnet is noticing and will do something about it, because it's becoming increasingly worse.

Indeed.

Make the words man and woman, girl and boy mean any person of any sex category and the words are meaningless.

Of course, some posters will boldface deny that they are then rendered meaningless and that the original sex category definition remains intact. But of course, it cannot remain intact if any male person is included in the words woman and girl and vice versa.

And yep. Pomo and queer theory.

So, an entire thread with plenty of words, but the very same outcome.

Language is being destabilised and it is only when the language is destabilised to the point that those words mean both sex category of humans supports so many of the words being written to explain how a male person can ever be a female person.

And then safeguarding is negatively impacted and women and girls are negatively impacted but those impacts are denied categorically. Yet .... words such as coherent and discussion are used when they too have been made to include the very opposite of the intended meaning.

Language, innit. Not important really...

oh... so just sneering, jeering and insulting people for the sake of it then?

Perhaps you should go back and reread the posts under your user name.

Do you disagree? Wouldn’t you need to be clearer in outlining what you believe for anyone to truly assess that?

This.
"Girl" isn't their body. It can't be, if your body is male.
"Girl", we are told, is not the social role and stereotypes, which you apparently don't yet need to be aware of to identify as a girl.
So what is "girl"? What is the difference between "girl" and the "boy" that you are not?

You can't identify as something and not-identify as something else in a vacuum. There has to be some notion attached to the concepts, and some difference between the notions, however non-verbal and non-conscious the notions may be.

And in order to be valid and justify action, the notion has to have some reality behind it.

So what is this "girl" that a male- bodied child can be?

What is great though, is that it seems that the trans community would be happy to have people arbitrating who is and is not transgender.

Because we have been consistently told over threads now how to decide who is and isn't transgender. I am really sure that transgender people will be very appreciative of being defined by us sharing what the poster has educated us on, After all, they have declared that they know a great deal about transgender people who is not transgender themselves.

Next time we have a male person with a transgender identity, we now know exactly what questions we are allowed to ask them to arbitrate whether they really are transgender or not. This is quite a relief as you can imagine.

I still think that the poster should be contacting all the health organisations of the world to inform them how to do this and hopefully they will get a science prize for it. I believe I may have suggested it before to them, I hope that they share their expertise widely.

Well, quite.

I still think that the poster should be contacting all the health organisations of the world to inform them how to do this and hopefully they will get a science prize for it.

And of course this isn't jeering or sneering is it? Nor was @BackToLurk 's post above. Nor pretty much every post @HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 has written..

I've read only 2 threads with you on them @Lacksie and you've been deleted at least once. Bear in mind that many of us very rarely ask for deletions of even the most awful posts because we prefer to let the comments stand for all to see.

Again @Lacksie two very clear questions posed by me this afternoon. You have not answered them. I appreciate you had a tonne of stuff to do but you did say you would be back to answer questions.

No one has bullied you. I suspect that is a tactic you have always used when you do not like the feedback. Classic deflection.

Neither Lacksie nor anyone else has suggested what kind of investigation or assessment should be carried out on a young child claiming to be the other sex.

I think there is a dilemma there, for anyone who is sympathetic to the idea of transitioning young children but still has the faculty for judgement: either an asessment passes every such child for transition (in which case why conduct it) or else there are some who would fail and therefore aren't "true" trans; acknowledging that some children can claim to be the other sex but not be "truly so" is difficult to square with the "they just know" justification, because it's an admission that some don't "just know".

I genuinely have sympathy for the mental gymanstics that smart people have to go through to keep this straight in their heads. I think it's much easier for people who lack the ability to think critically for themselves.

I am not aware of any of my posts that have been deleted.

I asked you a very simple question about what you personally believe. It is neither sneering nor jeering to observe that you chose to swerve it.

Well I saw one. IME sometimes MN tells us, sometimes they don't.

The only reason to "assess" a young child would be for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and to potentially refer for therapies. There are plenty of children who may be experiencing issues with gender who wouldn't necessarily have gender dysphoria/ be gender incongruent. And , in any case there are many trans people who may have a diagnosis but who are not given or do not pursue medical interventions.

The only reason to "assess" a young child would be for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and to potentially refer for therapies.

Well, quite. What does such an assessment consist of, and how do you fail it?

I genuinely think that if you have evidence to share, you should be doing it widely. If you don't want your name out there, then do it through other channels.

The point still stands that if you have evidence, you will be able to provide it where none exists at the moment. I believe I have been consistent in mentioning that you should do this over the years.

And if you did have this evidence that could shape how medical experts can work out who is genuine and who is not, it would be fucking great! It would improve the situation dramatically. Why the fuck wouldn't people want for that to happen? I certainly do.

And yes OP, if there was this way to detect genuine transgender people, it could be built into any assessment before treatment, before any categorisation that someone is transgender.

... and, scene.