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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The kind of “girl” that a boy who identifies as a girl thinks he is

1000 replies

MyAmpleSheep · 18/10/2026 14:49

How do people who celebrate the transitioning of five year old children know that the kind of girl a boy who identities as a “girl” identifies as is the same kind of girl that a girl who identifies as a “girl” is?

Other than than from what he sees girls doing, how can a boy “know” what being a girl is, to be sure he is one?

is it posited that there is an innate sense of boy:girl that exists outside of the experience of seeing and being the presence of others?

If a child was “raised by wolves”, could they be trans? If that child had a male body and reached the age of 20 never having seen or met or known of the existence of women is it possible for them to grow up with dysphoria? When eventually discovering the other sex would they suddenly recognize “they had been born in the wrong body”?

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Lougle · 22/10/2026 11:12

NotBadConsidering · 22/10/2026 11:06

Exactly. It has always been the case that a child’s unchallenged declared identity is enough to initiate treatment. Because Queer Theory dictates a person can be what they declare themselves to be. And by proxy, a child can too.

This is why they need the smokescreen of a “gender dysphoria” diagnosis. It provides a layer of authenticity to the reason for treatment that protects the real reason.

So you push through that and you get the concept of “innate gender identity” which provides a layer of authenticity to the reason for treatment that protects the real reason.

Finally, you push through that, and you’re left with the reason children are sterilised is because…we don’t know. It’s just something to not be enquired about too much, or it will be figured out later.

Grown up people, with qualifications and everything, follow this line of thinking. The lack of intellectual curiosity or self-examination of their own actions is astounding. There is no excuse for it. It is behaviour that has led to immeasurable harm to children and they need to be held to account.

When did the logical leap come that the treatment for dysphoria is affirmation and physical changes to remove the discomfort though? There isn't any logic in it. If you accept that you have dysphoria, you are accepting that you are reacting to your natural physical state in an unnatural way. Is this why the trans population is so fixed in the concept of 'being' rather than 'living as'? Because there's been a shift from 'my sex makes me uncomfortable' to 'I'm really the opposite sex and so everyone needs to accept me as such.'

Zbcdeg · 22/10/2026 11:16

I’m just about to leave mumsnet yet again because of my ObSeSSive nature but before I go I just want to express my admiration for any woman who can raise 2 young kids ( particularly those with additional needs) ,run a home, read weighty theoretical books and still post on mumsnet over the last 24 hrs at
9.51am 9.49 9.04 8.52 7.58 7.55 7.53 7.42 7.35 7.30 7.22 7.20 7.13
7.03 6.55 3.09 am 2.48 am 20.20 20.08 20.00 19.52 19.51 19.07 19.03 18.23 18.15 18.14 16.56 16.24 16.22 16.06. 16.00 15.52. 15.47 15.38. 15.31. 15.05. 13.46. 13.34. 13.15. 13.05. 12.56. 12.49 12.34 11.30. 11.01. 10.55. 10.47. 10.46. 9.59. 9.47. 8.21. …
hasn’t women’s lib come a long way!
Au Revoir!

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 22/10/2026 11:18

Zbcdeg · 22/10/2026 11:16

I’m just about to leave mumsnet yet again because of my ObSeSSive nature but before I go I just want to express my admiration for any woman who can raise 2 young kids ( particularly those with additional needs) ,run a home, read weighty theoretical books and still post on mumsnet over the last 24 hrs at
9.51am 9.49 9.04 8.52 7.58 7.55 7.53 7.42 7.35 7.30 7.22 7.20 7.13
7.03 6.55 3.09 am 2.48 am 20.20 20.08 20.00 19.52 19.51 19.07 19.03 18.23 18.15 18.14 16.56 16.24 16.22 16.06. 16.00 15.52. 15.47 15.38. 15.31. 15.05. 13.46. 13.34. 13.15. 13.05. 12.56. 12.49 12.34 11.30. 11.01. 10.55. 10.47. 10.46. 9.59. 9.47. 8.21. …
hasn’t women’s lib come a long way!
Au Revoir!

Thanks for your insightful contributions Z 💚🤍💜

BlueLegume · 22/10/2026 11:19

Zbcdeg · 22/10/2026 11:16

I’m just about to leave mumsnet yet again because of my ObSeSSive nature but before I go I just want to express my admiration for any woman who can raise 2 young kids ( particularly those with additional needs) ,run a home, read weighty theoretical books and still post on mumsnet over the last 24 hrs at
9.51am 9.49 9.04 8.52 7.58 7.55 7.53 7.42 7.35 7.30 7.22 7.20 7.13
7.03 6.55 3.09 am 2.48 am 20.20 20.08 20.00 19.52 19.51 19.07 19.03 18.23 18.15 18.14 16.56 16.24 16.22 16.06. 16.00 15.52. 15.47 15.38. 15.31. 15.05. 13.46. 13.34. 13.15. 13.05. 12.56. 12.49 12.34 11.30. 11.01. 10.55. 10.47. 10.46. 9.59. 9.47. 8.21. …
hasn’t women’s lib come a long way!
Au Revoir!

Several kids @Zbcdeg

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 22/10/2026 11:20

She also claims to have taught 16 year olds gravitational time dilation...

Hey @Lacksie , that was me. Are you struggling with the theory? Do you need a hand?

Lacksie · 22/10/2026 11:41

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 22/10/2026 11:20

She also claims to have taught 16 year olds gravitational time dilation...

Hey @Lacksie , that was me. Are you struggling with the theory? Do you need a hand?

Of course I struggle with it. Gravitational time dilation raises profound questions about the fundamental nature of time, spacetime and gravity that the greatest minds in physics are still grappling with.

And understanding complex physics surely requires an appreciation of much more basic conceptual distinctions, such as the difference between a word and a fact, or between our perceptual biases and reality itself. I haven’t seen much evidence of that much more basic apprehension in our conversations. So forgive me if I don't take you up on that offer. I'll stick with Carlo Rovelli.

Lacksie · 22/10/2026 11:56

Zbcdeg · 22/10/2026 11:16

I’m just about to leave mumsnet yet again because of my ObSeSSive nature but before I go I just want to express my admiration for any woman who can raise 2 young kids ( particularly those with additional needs) ,run a home, read weighty theoretical books and still post on mumsnet over the last 24 hrs at
9.51am 9.49 9.04 8.52 7.58 7.55 7.53 7.42 7.35 7.30 7.22 7.20 7.13
7.03 6.55 3.09 am 2.48 am 20.20 20.08 20.00 19.52 19.51 19.07 19.03 18.23 18.15 18.14 16.56 16.24 16.22 16.06. 16.00 15.52. 15.47 15.38. 15.31. 15.05. 13.46. 13.34. 13.15. 13.05. 12.56. 12.49 12.34 11.30. 11.01. 10.55. 10.47. 10.46. 9.59. 9.47. 8.21. …
hasn’t women’s lib come a long way!
Au Revoir!

Yes yes yes. Well done you. I'm a terrible mother.

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 22/10/2026 11:59

IME some men do have a very strong negative reaction to women studying and teaching Physics. I think they are worried that a space they feel they own is being invaded.

Datun · 22/10/2026 12:03

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 22/10/2026 11:59

IME some men do have a very strong negative reaction to women studying and teaching Physics. I think they are worried that a space they feel they own is being invaded.

Yep. There's a reason girls do better in STEM in single sex schools.

Datun · 22/10/2026 12:04

I think they are worried that a space they feel they own is being invaded.

😁

BackToLurk · 22/10/2026 12:12

Ultimately you either believe the male child who thinks he’s a girl is really a girl or you don’t. @Lacksie does, based on “they say they are” and little else. On that flimsy basis they also think it’s fine to operate on them and medicate them.

And little of it is relevant to, or explains, late transitioners. What a waste of time.

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 22/10/2026 12:13

Datun · 22/10/2026 12:03

Yep. There's a reason girls do better in STEM in single sex schools.

Edited

Strong agreement with this. I would favour single-sex to 16, then mixed-sex sixth forms.

Imdunfer · 22/10/2026 12:13

Lacksie · 22/10/2026 11:56

Yes yes yes. Well done you. I'm a terrible mother.

Or several pretty much OK parents?

Lacksie · 22/10/2026 12:15

ArabellaScott · 22/10/2026 10:47

But that still doesn't answer my question. You've explained that unconscious processes might influence a child's identification, and acknowledged that we don't know what those processes are.

What you haven't explained is how or why the child identifies that experience specifically as being a girl, rather than simply not wanting to be a boy. That's the distinction I've been asking about throughout.

Effectively youre saying there may or may not be a process we dont understand that leads to a child declaring themselves to be a boy or a girl. Fine. Could you explain on what basis we would assign any weight to this mysterious unexplained assertion?

I don’t think your first question (why a girl and just not a boy) is particularly difficult, and it doesn’t change anything I’ve already explained.

Some children may simply not want to be boys and identify as girls because that’s the alternative category available to them. Some may subsequently understand themselves as non-binary. Others may have a persistent, positive sense of themselves as girls.

In each case, the underlying developmental process involves the child’s developing sense of self interacting with socially acquired concepts and categories. The particular experiences and identifications may differ, but the basic structure of the process remains the same.

As I’ve explained repeatedly, the fact that children acquire the concepts of boy and girl socially doesn’t establish that the neurocognitive processes shaping their identification with those categories are reducible to social learning.

As for why we should assign any evidential weight to this supposedly “mysterious unexplained assertion”, it’s because the account I’m describing isn’t arbitrary. It’s consistent with people’s descriptions of their own experiences, including experiences that they don’t understand as reducible to gender stereotypes, socialisation, upbringing, parental influences, trauma, social pressures or the rejection of conventional gender roles; with developmental theories of gender cognition; and with our broader understanding of how the brain constructs and organises our sense/ recognition of self through processes that aren’t necessarily consciously accessible.

We don’t yet have a complete explanation of the particular neurocognitive processes involved in gender identification, but that doesn’t mean we have no evidence on which to build an understanding of it. The same is true of a vast range of neurological, psychiatric and neurodevelopmental conditions.
We can recognise, describe and investigate phenomena, and develop explanatory models of them, without having established their precise underlying neurobiological mechanisms.

Why you think gender identity should be held to an entirely different epistemological standard is the more interesting question.

BackToLurk · 22/10/2026 12:21

Lacksie · 22/10/2026 12:15

I don’t think your first question (why a girl and just not a boy) is particularly difficult, and it doesn’t change anything I’ve already explained.

Some children may simply not want to be boys and identify as girls because that’s the alternative category available to them. Some may subsequently understand themselves as non-binary. Others may have a persistent, positive sense of themselves as girls.

In each case, the underlying developmental process involves the child’s developing sense of self interacting with socially acquired concepts and categories. The particular experiences and identifications may differ, but the basic structure of the process remains the same.

As I’ve explained repeatedly, the fact that children acquire the concepts of boy and girl socially doesn’t establish that the neurocognitive processes shaping their identification with those categories are reducible to social learning.

As for why we should assign any evidential weight to this supposedly “mysterious unexplained assertion”, it’s because the account I’m describing isn’t arbitrary. It’s consistent with people’s descriptions of their own experiences, including experiences that they don’t understand as reducible to gender stereotypes, socialisation, upbringing, parental influences, trauma, social pressures or the rejection of conventional gender roles; with developmental theories of gender cognition; and with our broader understanding of how the brain constructs and organises our sense/ recognition of self through processes that aren’t necessarily consciously accessible.

We don’t yet have a complete explanation of the particular neurocognitive processes involved in gender identification, but that doesn’t mean we have no evidence on which to build an understanding of it. The same is true of a vast range of neurological, psychiatric and neurodevelopmental conditions.
We can recognise, describe and investigate phenomena, and develop explanatory models of them, without having established their precise underlying neurobiological mechanisms.

Why you think gender identity should be held to an entirely different epistemological standard is the more interesting question.

You’re the one holding it to a different standard.

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 22/10/2026 12:24

@Lacksie Why you think gender identity should be held to an entirely different epistemological standard is the more interesting question.

It should be held to the highest of standards because affirming nearly always leads to a lifetime of medication, surgery, possible infertility, possible IQ reduction, difficulties with relationships and still few people will ever actually recognise the person as being the opposite sex.

Safeguarding red flags flying again.

Fidgetbreak · 22/10/2026 12:30

BackToLurk · 22/10/2026 10:30

Again, I'm not sure what your example of somatoparaphrenia is set to illustrate. Somatoparaphrenia is a delusion. You seem to be offering it as an example of a contrast with 'normal' cognition, where an individual automatically 'knows' their limbs are theirs.

In which case the parallel would be as follows. 'Normally' a human just automatically 'knows' what sex they are. However, in some cases they have the delusion that they aren't the sex they are. Rather than challenge or get to the root of this delusion, you suggest affirming it.

As far as I can tell that is exactly what Lacksie has been trying to say all this time.

On the previous thread @Lacksie was very concise.

"Gender identity is simply the brain's awareness and recognition of oneself as being a particular sex."

"If you recognise yourself to be female, that recognition is your gender identity. That's all the term describes."

All these references to studies and excessive use of long technical words is an attempt to justify the decision to always affirm the child's 'belief' in being the opposite sex.

It wouldn't be so frustrating if Lacksie would actually engage with some of the questions about the consequences of taking that path.

It's also worth pointing out that plenty of trans people would disagree with that definition. Another complication arising from trans not being a single homogeneous group. Something which Lacksie (amongst a surprising number of other activists) doesn't appear to have considered.

nicepotoftea · 22/10/2026 12:35

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 22/10/2026 12:24

@Lacksie Why you think gender identity should be held to an entirely different epistemological standard is the more interesting question.

It should be held to the highest of standards because affirming nearly always leads to a lifetime of medication, surgery, possible infertility, possible IQ reduction, difficulties with relationships and still few people will ever actually recognise the person as being the opposite sex.

Safeguarding red flags flying again.

Edited

Yes - We could wonder why some people are religious and some aren't, and why some people's nationality is integral to their sense of self when other people just don't think it's relevant. We could wonder what happened to movements like Punk. Why are some people's lives so dominated by their football team?

However, nobody suggests that any of these identities require medical treatment.

Lacksie · 22/10/2026 12:43

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 22/10/2026 12:24

@Lacksie Why you think gender identity should be held to an entirely different epistemological standard is the more interesting question.

It should be held to the highest of standards because affirming nearly always leads to a lifetime of medication, surgery, possible infertility, possible IQ reduction, difficulties with relationships and still few people will ever actually recognise the person as being the opposite sex.

Safeguarding red flags flying again.

Edited

No, that doesn’t follow at all. You’re conflating the evidential standards required to understand the underlying aetiology of a phenomenon with those required to establish the safety, efficacy and appropriateness of a medical intervention.

We don’t leave people with debilitating medical conditions untreated until we have a complete understanding of their underlying aetiology. If we did, we’d dismantle a substantial proportion of modern medicine, and most of neurology and psychiatry.

The standard should always be careful, individualised assessment, informed consent, a proportionate evaluation of risks and benefits, and treatment decisions grounded in the best available evidence, with appropriate monitoring and follow-up. That includes recognising the risks of withholding potentially beneficial treatment, as well as the risks of providing it.

And btw affirming a child’s reported experience is not synonymous with prescribing medication or performing surgery. Those are separate clinical decisions.

These principles should apply consistently, regardless of the condition or our personal beliefs and prejudices about the people experiencing it.

And frankly, the suggestion that whether other people will recognise someone as their identified sex should factor into whether they deserve appropriate healthcare raises some rather serious safeguarding concerns of its own.

BackToLurk · 22/10/2026 12:49

Lacksie · 22/10/2026 12:43

No, that doesn’t follow at all. You’re conflating the evidential standards required to understand the underlying aetiology of a phenomenon with those required to establish the safety, efficacy and appropriateness of a medical intervention.

We don’t leave people with debilitating medical conditions untreated until we have a complete understanding of their underlying aetiology. If we did, we’d dismantle a substantial proportion of modern medicine, and most of neurology and psychiatry.

The standard should always be careful, individualised assessment, informed consent, a proportionate evaluation of risks and benefits, and treatment decisions grounded in the best available evidence, with appropriate monitoring and follow-up. That includes recognising the risks of withholding potentially beneficial treatment, as well as the risks of providing it.

And btw affirming a child’s reported experience is not synonymous with prescribing medication or performing surgery. Those are separate clinical decisions.

These principles should apply consistently, regardless of the condition or our personal beliefs and prejudices about the people experiencing it.

And frankly, the suggestion that whether other people will recognise someone as their identified sex should factor into whether they deserve appropriate healthcare raises some rather serious safeguarding concerns of its own.

And btw affirming a child’s reported experience is not synonymous with prescribing medication or performing surgery. Those are separate clinical decisions.

Saying something like this is the mark of someone buried in theory with no recognition of the application of that theory in the real world. A dangerous combination.

I see again you mention psychiatry. As has been raised previously, psychiatric medicine is concerned with the brain, not different bodily systems, such as the endocrine system.

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 22/10/2026 12:50

No, that doesn’t follow at all. You’re conflating the evidential standards required to understand the underlying aetiology of a phenomenon with those required to establish the safety, efficacy and appropriateness of a medical intervention.

The latter depend on the former.

We don’t leave people with debilitating medical conditions untreated until we have a complete understanding of their underlying aetiology. If we did, we’d dismantle a substantial proportion of modern medicine, and most of neurology and psychiatry.

Your theory isn't incomplete. it is completely unevidenced except for a child's 'reported experience' seen through the lens of Queer Theory.

And btw affirming a child’s reported experience is not synonymous with prescribing medication or performing surgery. Those are separate clinical decisions.
The evidence amassed by Cass disagrees. Even the NHS has come on board.

And frankly, the suggestion that whether other people will recognise someone as their identified sex should factor into whether they deserve appropriate healthcare raises some rather serious safeguarding concerns of its own.
If you are not telling the 'patient' that other people will not recognise them as their 'identified sex' then that is the red flag, right there.

nicepotoftea · 22/10/2026 12:53

Lacksie · 22/10/2026 12:43

No, that doesn’t follow at all. You’re conflating the evidential standards required to understand the underlying aetiology of a phenomenon with those required to establish the safety, efficacy and appropriateness of a medical intervention.

We don’t leave people with debilitating medical conditions untreated until we have a complete understanding of their underlying aetiology. If we did, we’d dismantle a substantial proportion of modern medicine, and most of neurology and psychiatry.

The standard should always be careful, individualised assessment, informed consent, a proportionate evaluation of risks and benefits, and treatment decisions grounded in the best available evidence, with appropriate monitoring and follow-up. That includes recognising the risks of withholding potentially beneficial treatment, as well as the risks of providing it.

And btw affirming a child’s reported experience is not synonymous with prescribing medication or performing surgery. Those are separate clinical decisions.

These principles should apply consistently, regardless of the condition or our personal beliefs and prejudices about the people experiencing it.

And frankly, the suggestion that whether other people will recognise someone as their identified sex should factor into whether they deserve appropriate healthcare raises some rather serious safeguarding concerns of its own.

We don’t leave people with debilitating medical conditions untreated until we have a complete understanding of their underlying aetiology.

But we do wonder why a 'debilitating condition' would suddenly explode, and whether we have identified the correct condition and whether it is actually debilitating; and we don't give people treatment with serious long term side effects if there is no evidence of it's effectiveness.

BackToLurk · 22/10/2026 12:56

I have just heard the following phrase on the radio “a long walk up a steep hill for a very small picnic” and it didn’t half remind me of this thread.

ArabellaScott · 22/10/2026 12:59

NotBadConsidering · 22/10/2026 11:06

Exactly. It has always been the case that a child’s unchallenged declared identity is enough to initiate treatment. Because Queer Theory dictates a person can be what they declare themselves to be. And by proxy, a child can too.

This is why they need the smokescreen of a “gender dysphoria” diagnosis. It provides a layer of authenticity to the reason for treatment that protects the real reason.

So you push through that and you get the concept of “innate gender identity” which provides a layer of authenticity to the reason for treatment that protects the real reason.

Finally, you push through that, and you’re left with the reason children are sterilised is because…we don’t know. It’s just something to not be enquired about too much, or it will be figured out later.

Grown up people, with qualifications and everything, follow this line of thinking. The lack of intellectual curiosity or self-examination of their own actions is astounding. There is no excuse for it. It is behaviour that has led to immeasurable harm to children and they need to be held to account.

Yes. This seems like a frustrating conversation between randoms on the internet, and it is.

What is far more concerning is that the NHS, government, and people in positions of responsibility are fully behind 'gender identity' as a concept. They can't explain it, either.

HotChocolateHotCoffeeColdDrinks · 22/10/2026 13:06

Lacksie · 22/10/2026 09:49

OK, thank you. That helps clarify what you're asking, and I think it's a genuinely interesting question.

First, again, what I'm referring to as gender identity is our recognition of ourselves in relation to sex categories such as male and female, boy and girl. For most people, that recognition corresponds to their physical sex, so it's completely unremarkable. It doesn't necessarily feel like anything. It's simply something they know about themselves.

But that's true of a great deal of human cognition.

Consider again the example of recognising your own arm. What does recognising that your arm belongs to your body actually feel like? I couldn't tell you. You might say you know it's yours because you can see it or feel it, but as we've discussed, neurological conditions such as somatoparaphrenia demonstrate that bodily ownership isn't simply derived from those sensations. Some patients can see and feel their arm but don't recognise it as their own. Conversely, someone can lose movement or sensation in a limb without losing their recognition of it as part of their body.

The point is that much of our cognition happens automatically, through processes operating outside conscious awareness. We experience the result of those processes without necessarily having direct conscious access to how the brain produces it.

So if I asked you what recognising yourself as a woman feels like, you might reasonably answer that it doesn't feel like anything. You simply know you're a woman. You wouldn't necessarily be able to describe some distinctive internal sensation of femaleness.

And this is what I'm suggesting is also happening when a young gender-incongruent child identifies as a girl or boy.

When researchers and interviewers ask young children how they know, they give simple answers: "I just am", "I felt it inside", "my body feels it", "on the outside I'm a girl, but inside my head I know I'm a boy".
People objected and got very indignant when I previously shared examples like these because they felt the answers were insufficient. But insufficient for what? They weren't intended to establish whether a child should receive medical treatment. They were examples of children attempting to describe their own identification.

Of course, if a child said, "I know I'm a girl because girls wear dresses and I like dresses", that would tell us something quite different. It would suggest that their identification was being explained through a gender stereotype, and that would be important to explore.

But when a child says, "I just know I'm a girl", we shouldn't automatically assume there's some unarticulated belief about dresses, toys or other characteristics behind that recognition. There may be underlying cognitive processes that the child simply cannot explain.

Now, your second question is how the child comes to recognise that experience specifically as belonging to the category "girl".

And that brings us back to the original hypothetical about a child raised without human contact.

Would such a child know they were gender-incongruent? We don't know. They might experience some vague sense of disassociation from self ("something feels wrong, I just don't feel like me") or bodily incongruence or discomfort without understanding it. They might experience nothing identifiable at all. Without the concepts of male and female, boy and girl, they couldn't recognise or describe their experience in those terms.

But children ordinarily develop within a social world in which those categories are constantly used. They acquire the language and concepts through which they can understand and interpret their experiences.

In that social world, being called a boy might feel wrong or confusing, while being recognised as a girl feels right, or brings a sense of relief. Through repeated experiences of that kind, the child may come to recognise and describe their identification using the socially acquired concept "girl".

That doesn't require the child to know what being female feels like for other people. Nor does it require them to identify some characteristic that all girls share and consciously conclude that they possess it.

It requires the development of gender concepts and the possibility that underlying neurocognitive processes contribute to how the child experiences their own relationship to those categories.

Now, it's true that we don't currently know precisely what those underlying processes are, or how they work. That's a fundamental limitation in our understanding of the brain/ cognition, and our ability to observe how it works. It's an empirical question, not something I'm claiming to have settled.

But I think it's a mistake to assume that, unless a child can articulate some specific content or definition that explains their identification, there can be no underlying cognitive basis for it.

We routinely recognise things about ourselves through processes we cannot consciously describe.

Ok, so you think a 4 year old identifying as the other sex differs from identifying as a different species. One requires immediate affirmation and medication, one doesn't.
Now take the same explanation and explain how you think gender dysphoria differs from weight dysphoria. Swap trans identification with anorexia. Do you think the latter also needs immediate affirmation? If not, why not?

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