Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The kind of “girl” that a boy who identifies as a girl thinks he is

1000 replies

MyAmpleSheep · 18/10/2026 14:49

How do people who celebrate the transitioning of five year old children know that the kind of girl a boy who identities as a “girl” identifies as is the same kind of girl that a girl who identifies as a “girl” is?

Other than than from what he sees girls doing, how can a boy “know” what being a girl is, to be sure he is one?

is it posited that there is an innate sense of boy:girl that exists outside of the experience of seeing and being the presence of others?

If a child was “raised by wolves”, could they be trans? If that child had a male body and reached the age of 20 never having seen or met or known of the existence of women is it possible for them to grow up with dysphoria? When eventually discovering the other sex would they suddenly recognize “they had been born in the wrong body”?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 22/10/2026 13:07

BackToLurk · 22/10/2026 12:56

I have just heard the following phrase on the radio “a long walk up a steep hill for a very small picnic” and it didn’t half remind me of this thread.

😂
Tbh, at the start I was giving it my full attention and considering my replies at length. Now I'm just scribbling them out while eating a piece of toast and planning next week's schedule. Once the underlying 'theory' is dug out from all the attempts to intimidate through language it is the work of a moment to rebuff it.
I remain here solely because I have taught many children with autism and I will not sit by while they are sacrificed to this batshittery.

ArabellaScott · 22/10/2026 13:16

Lacksie · 22/10/2026 12:43

No, that doesn’t follow at all. You’re conflating the evidential standards required to understand the underlying aetiology of a phenomenon with those required to establish the safety, efficacy and appropriateness of a medical intervention.

We don’t leave people with debilitating medical conditions untreated until we have a complete understanding of their underlying aetiology. If we did, we’d dismantle a substantial proportion of modern medicine, and most of neurology and psychiatry.

The standard should always be careful, individualised assessment, informed consent, a proportionate evaluation of risks and benefits, and treatment decisions grounded in the best available evidence, with appropriate monitoring and follow-up. That includes recognising the risks of withholding potentially beneficial treatment, as well as the risks of providing it.

And btw affirming a child’s reported experience is not synonymous with prescribing medication or performing surgery. Those are separate clinical decisions.

These principles should apply consistently, regardless of the condition or our personal beliefs and prejudices about the people experiencing it.

And frankly, the suggestion that whether other people will recognise someone as their identified sex should factor into whether they deserve appropriate healthcare raises some rather serious safeguarding concerns of its own.

We don't treat debilitating medical conditions with 'what the patient demands'. Most fucking especially not when that patient is a child. We research and use evidence.

ArabellaScott · 22/10/2026 13:20

Lacksie · 22/10/2026 12:15

I don’t think your first question (why a girl and just not a boy) is particularly difficult, and it doesn’t change anything I’ve already explained.

Some children may simply not want to be boys and identify as girls because that’s the alternative category available to them. Some may subsequently understand themselves as non-binary. Others may have a persistent, positive sense of themselves as girls.

In each case, the underlying developmental process involves the child’s developing sense of self interacting with socially acquired concepts and categories. The particular experiences and identifications may differ, but the basic structure of the process remains the same.

As I’ve explained repeatedly, the fact that children acquire the concepts of boy and girl socially doesn’t establish that the neurocognitive processes shaping their identification with those categories are reducible to social learning.

As for why we should assign any evidential weight to this supposedly “mysterious unexplained assertion”, it’s because the account I’m describing isn’t arbitrary. It’s consistent with people’s descriptions of their own experiences, including experiences that they don’t understand as reducible to gender stereotypes, socialisation, upbringing, parental influences, trauma, social pressures or the rejection of conventional gender roles; with developmental theories of gender cognition; and with our broader understanding of how the brain constructs and organises our sense/ recognition of self through processes that aren’t necessarily consciously accessible.

We don’t yet have a complete explanation of the particular neurocognitive processes involved in gender identification, but that doesn’t mean we have no evidence on which to build an understanding of it. The same is true of a vast range of neurological, psychiatric and neurodevelopmental conditions.
We can recognise, describe and investigate phenomena, and develop explanatory models of them, without having established their precise underlying neurobiological mechanisms.

Why you think gender identity should be held to an entirely different epistemological standard is the more interesting question.

Some children may simply not want to be boys and identify as girls because that’s the alternative category available to them.

I would agree that some children feel distress, look for a locus of that stress, and decide it is in their sex. If they are not one, they must be the other.

Nonbinary is bullshit, let's be honest. It can't form a coherent part of any argument.

But we can imagine that a boy distressed by his sex must therefore make the logical leap that he is 'not a boy' - thus: 'a girl'.

I could just about concede that 'trans' can be a rejection of a child's sex. A kind of apophatic identity.

More a negation of their body/self than anything else. And alight on saying they are the opposite sex, because if they don't measure up to /match what they understand 'boy' to mean, needs must they are a girl.

ArabellaScott · 22/10/2026 13:21

'Others may have a persistent, positive sense of themselves as girls.'

This, though. How or what would that feel like or mean? It's meaningless if it's just an assertion supported by circular reasoning. Utterly meaningless!

Helleofabore · 22/10/2026 13:21

Fidgetbreak · 22/10/2026 12:30

As far as I can tell that is exactly what Lacksie has been trying to say all this time.

On the previous thread @Lacksie was very concise.

"Gender identity is simply the brain's awareness and recognition of oneself as being a particular sex."

"If you recognise yourself to be female, that recognition is your gender identity. That's all the term describes."

All these references to studies and excessive use of long technical words is an attempt to justify the decision to always affirm the child's 'belief' in being the opposite sex.

It wouldn't be so frustrating if Lacksie would actually engage with some of the questions about the consequences of taking that path.

It's also worth pointing out that plenty of trans people would disagree with that definition. Another complication arising from trans not being a single homogeneous group. Something which Lacksie (amongst a surprising number of other activists) doesn't appear to have considered.

“Another complication arising from trans not being a single homogeneous group. Something which Lacksie (amongst a surprising number of other activists) doesn't appear to have considered.”

This has been raised many times across user names who consistently effectively arbitrate who is and isn’t genuinely transgender. The same theories are used and they always gatekeep who is transgender while denying they are doing it. It is a consistent pattern.

For instance, they have told us that transmaxxers are not transgender people. And that other groups are not transgender.

When you see it, you cannot unsee it.

Multiple usernames claiming to be informed, implying they have doctorate qualifications in a relevant topic, saying they work closely supporting transgender people, but always stating what people with transgender identities understand about themselves and who they are.

Always speaking for transgender people under the premise of informing others. Always deriding other posters. At least now there is much less abusive name calling from the user names that usually left holes in the threads.

It is remarkable to see the pattern of such similar posters.

And always claiming to be the posters with coherent arguments when the reality is the arguments are incoherent and are steeply reliant on philosophical theory about self conceptualisation and never evidenced with usable papers and studies.

Always speaking for people with transgender identities and personally excluding those people they don’t believe fit the description.

ArabellaScott · 22/10/2026 13:27

'the underlying developmental process involves the child’s developing sense of self interacting with socially acquired concepts and categories'

the self is constructed through this process. I agree. But it does not and cannot and could not ever mean that a girl is born 'in a boys body' or vice versa.

I can just about accept that a very, very tiny number of people have a neurological disorder akin to phantom leg syndrome that attaches to their sexed body and leads them to feel incredible distress. Doctors don't know how to treat this so some have decided to use a 'transition' to treat it. And this appears at least for a time to offer some relief for at least some of these people.

The trouble is that there are multiple reasons for children to say 'I'm a boy' when they're a girl.

They may be - confusion, stereotypes, abuse, Munchhausens by proxy, etc. A long list of different causes.

And trans activists have somehow decided that a child who makes a proclamation of being the opposite sex is always, without fail, to be affirmed.

Perhaps there are this really truly miniscule number of children who are 'true trans'. But there are many, many magnitudes more who have other reasons for deciding they are not the sex that they are.

Treating all of these children as if they must actually have this vanishingly rare exceptional condition is, to be blunt, insane.

PlinketyplonkSlinketyslonk · 22/10/2026 13:46

PlinketyplonkSlinketyslonk · 22/10/2026 09:37

As you wish.

You argued that "there's no evidence whatsoever that gender incongruence has anything to do with conscious reasoning — either about sex stereotypes or anything else." But given that a 4-year-old’s brain doesn't do abstract logic yet, how can a toddler separate biological sex from an internal gender identity? If it isn't based on biology, and it happens before he even learns social stereotypes like dresses or dolls, what is he actually sensing? How do you define what being a "girl" feels like here without the argument becoming circular, or isn't it more likely just a simple mix-up over what the words mean?

You also noted that "underlying neurobiological processes interact with social learning," pointing out that a child raised by wolves wouldn't have the concepts of "boy" and "girl." If a child completely relies on society to get these labels in the first place, how can psychologists separate a truly innate internal drive from the intense social conditioning, media, and adult cues they absorb every day? Isn't there a risk that affirming a sensitive, gentle boy as a "girl" actually reinforces rigid sexist stereotypes by telling him he can't just be a feminine boy, but must actually be a female to fit in?

When discussing how to handle this, you said that "affirmation here simply means recognising the reality of a child's psychological experience" and that changing names or clothes "is a responsive and revisable parenting/ relationship approach." But if a 4-year-old insists they are a dinosaur or a dog, parents view it as play and guide them back to reality. What makes a child claiming to be the opposite sex a deep truth that needs affirming, rather than standard childhood imagination? Furthermore, at what point does an interpersonal courtesy cross the line into asking an entire nursery or community to validate a fiction over material reality?

Finally, you defended social transition by saying that denying a child's experience "is unhelpful and causing profound distress." However the Cass review suggests that early social transition is not a neutral act and often locks a child into a medicalised pathway they might have otherwise naturally outgrown. With the clinical shifts away from early childhood transitioning, is there actual clinical data or long-term research you can point to showing that gentle, reality-based boundaries cause genuine harm to a toddler compared to full affirmation?

Edited

@Lacksie I feel you are swerving my questions and are likely now waiting for this thread to max out.

I'm genuinely disappointed as I really wanted to engage in a discussion with someone who claims to have expertise on a topic I am curious about.

Lacksie · 22/10/2026 13:47

ArabellaScott · 22/10/2026 13:27

'the underlying developmental process involves the child’s developing sense of self interacting with socially acquired concepts and categories'

the self is constructed through this process. I agree. But it does not and cannot and could not ever mean that a girl is born 'in a boys body' or vice versa.

I can just about accept that a very, very tiny number of people have a neurological disorder akin to phantom leg syndrome that attaches to their sexed body and leads them to feel incredible distress. Doctors don't know how to treat this so some have decided to use a 'transition' to treat it. And this appears at least for a time to offer some relief for at least some of these people.

The trouble is that there are multiple reasons for children to say 'I'm a boy' when they're a girl.

They may be - confusion, stereotypes, abuse, Munchhausens by proxy, etc. A long list of different causes.

And trans activists have somehow decided that a child who makes a proclamation of being the opposite sex is always, without fail, to be affirmed.

Perhaps there are this really truly miniscule number of children who are 'true trans'. But there are many, many magnitudes more who have other reasons for deciding they are not the sex that they are.

Treating all of these children as if they must actually have this vanishingly rare exceptional condition is, to be blunt, insane.

Well this is actually wonderful because you and I can then agree on all of this

"the self is constructed through this process. I agree. But it does not and cannot and could not ever mean that a girl is born 'in a boys body' or vice versa.

I can just about accept that a very, very tiny number of people have a neurological disorder akin to phantom leg syndrome that attaches to their sexed body and leads them to feel incredible distress. Doctors don't know how to treat this so some have decided to use a 'transition' to treat it. And this appears at least for a time to offer some relief for at least some of these people.

The trouble is that there are multiple reasons for children to say 'I'm a boy' when they're a girl.

They may be - confusion, stereotypes, abuse, Munchhausens by proxy, etc. A long list of different causes."

Where we then disagree is the next part you go on to about what you believe is happening in practice -but that's an empirical disagreement about what's actually happening, not a fundamental difference in understanding/ perspective values.

So some progress in shared understanding perhaps ? ❤️

nicepotoftea · 22/10/2026 14:05

Where are the examples of good practice?

BackToLurk · 22/10/2026 14:07

Lacksie · 22/10/2026 13:47

Well this is actually wonderful because you and I can then agree on all of this

"the self is constructed through this process. I agree. But it does not and cannot and could not ever mean that a girl is born 'in a boys body' or vice versa.

I can just about accept that a very, very tiny number of people have a neurological disorder akin to phantom leg syndrome that attaches to their sexed body and leads them to feel incredible distress. Doctors don't know how to treat this so some have decided to use a 'transition' to treat it. And this appears at least for a time to offer some relief for at least some of these people.

The trouble is that there are multiple reasons for children to say 'I'm a boy' when they're a girl.

They may be - confusion, stereotypes, abuse, Munchhausens by proxy, etc. A long list of different causes."

Where we then disagree is the next part you go on to about what you believe is happening in practice -but that's an empirical disagreement about what's actually happening, not a fundamental difference in understanding/ perspective values.

So some progress in shared understanding perhaps ? ❤️

Edited

Do you believe that a child with a male body is a boy, regardless of what they believe?

BackToLurk · 22/10/2026 14:07

nicepotoftea · 22/10/2026 14:05

Where are the examples of good practice?

I think I asked that way back. Do not recall getting an answer.

Lacksie · 22/10/2026 14:16

BackToLurk · 22/10/2026 14:07

Do you believe that a child with a male body is a boy, regardless of what they believe?

I think the difficulty here is that you’re treating what is fundamentally a semantic question as though it has a straightforward empirical answer. The answer depends on what you mean by the word “boy”.

You can choose to define “boy” exclusively in terms of anatomical sex characteristics, but presenting that as the definitive meaning of a term that also functions as a social and legal category, with meanings and implications extending well beyond anatomy, is misleadingly reductive.

More importantly, choosing that definition doesn’t establish anything about the nature, origins or validity of a child’s identification with that category, or the neurocognitive processes involved.

You’re treating a question about how we define and use words as though it settles an empirical question about what is real or true. It doesn’t.

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 22/10/2026 14:17

@PlinketyplonkSlinketyslonk But given that a 4-year-old’s brain doesn't do abstract logic yet, how can a toddler separate biological sex from an internal gender identity?

I can vouch that the abstract reasoning question has been swerved several times on this thread.

BackToLurk · 22/10/2026 14:19

Lacksie · 22/10/2026 14:16

I think the difficulty here is that you’re treating what is fundamentally a semantic question as though it has a straightforward empirical answer. The answer depends on what you mean by the word “boy”.

You can choose to define “boy” exclusively in terms of anatomical sex characteristics, but presenting that as the definitive meaning of a term that also functions as a social and legal category, with meanings and implications extending well beyond anatomy, is misleadingly reductive.

More importantly, choosing that definition doesn’t establish anything about the nature, origins or validity of a child’s identification with that category, or the neurocognitive processes involved.

You’re treating a question about how we define and use words as though it settles an empirical question about what is real or true. It doesn’t.

I'm asking you what you believe to be true. That is a straightforward question.

Lacksie · 22/10/2026 14:24

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 22/10/2026 14:17

@PlinketyplonkSlinketyslonk But given that a 4-year-old’s brain doesn't do abstract logic yet, how can a toddler separate biological sex from an internal gender identity?

I can vouch that the abstract reasoning question has been swerved several times on this thread.

It's hasn't . It's been explained several times. The answer is recognition of self in relation to sex categories doesn't involve any "abstract reasoning". Hence most children managing this by age 3.

Fidgetbreak · 22/10/2026 14:26

Are we back to "Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components"?

Gulp

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5378486-biological-sex-is-a-multidimensional-variable-with-various-components-discuss

nicepotoftea · 22/10/2026 14:26

Lacksie · 22/10/2026 14:16

I think the difficulty here is that you’re treating what is fundamentally a semantic question as though it has a straightforward empirical answer. The answer depends on what you mean by the word “boy”.

You can choose to define “boy” exclusively in terms of anatomical sex characteristics, but presenting that as the definitive meaning of a term that also functions as a social and legal category, with meanings and implications extending well beyond anatomy, is misleadingly reductive.

More importantly, choosing that definition doesn’t establish anything about the nature, origins or validity of a child’s identification with that category, or the neurocognitive processes involved.

You’re treating a question about how we define and use words as though it settles an empirical question about what is real or true. It doesn’t.

Just so we can understand terms, would you reply in the same way if somebody asked you if a child could be a kitten?

Lacksie · 22/10/2026 14:27

BackToLurk · 22/10/2026 14:19

I'm asking you what you believe to be true. That is a straightforward question.

And I’ve explained why the answer depends on how you’re defining the word “boy”. Without clarifying that definition, the question has no determinate answer. Different definitions produce different answers, and choosing one definition over another doesn’t establish which claims about reality are true

Lacksie · 22/10/2026 14:35

nicepotoftea · 22/10/2026 14:26

Just so we can understand terms, would you reply in the same way if somebody asked you if a child could be a kitten?

If there were comparable questions about the meaning and application of the categories “child” and “kitten”, then yes, of course

BackToLurk · 22/10/2026 14:38

Lacksie · 22/10/2026 14:27

And I’ve explained why the answer depends on how you’re defining the word “boy”. Without clarifying that definition, the question has no determinate answer. Different definitions produce different answers, and choosing one definition over another doesn’t establish which claims about reality are true

Again, nope. This is a question of what you believe to be true. That will inevitably be based on your definition.

Do you believe that a child with a male body is a boy, regardless of what they believe?

Imdunfer · 22/10/2026 14:40

Lacksie · 22/10/2026 14:16

I think the difficulty here is that you’re treating what is fundamentally a semantic question as though it has a straightforward empirical answer. The answer depends on what you mean by the word “boy”.

You can choose to define “boy” exclusively in terms of anatomical sex characteristics, but presenting that as the definitive meaning of a term that also functions as a social and legal category, with meanings and implications extending well beyond anatomy, is misleadingly reductive.

More importantly, choosing that definition doesn’t establish anything about the nature, origins or validity of a child’s identification with that category, or the neurocognitive processes involved.

You’re treating a question about how we define and use words as though it settles an empirical question about what is real or true. It doesn’t.

And there we have it. Lacksie doesn't know what a boy is.

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 22/10/2026 14:42

Imdunfer · 22/10/2026 14:40

And there we have it. Lacksie doesn't know what a boy is.

Queer Theory does not recognise that boy exclusively means human, male child. Designed to confuse, especially the young and the vulnerable.

nicepotoftea · 22/10/2026 14:42

Lacksie · 22/10/2026 14:35

If there were comparable questions about the meaning and application of the categories “child” and “kitten”, then yes, of course

As with sex, the difference is relevant to law, policy and medicine and that is when clear meanings are necessary.

Nobody cares if you call your kitten your baby. They do care if you treat your baby like a kitten.

Lacksie · 22/10/2026 14:49

nicepotoftea · 22/10/2026 14:42

As with sex, the difference is relevant to law, policy and medicine and that is when clear meanings are necessary.

Nobody cares if you call your kitten your baby. They do care if you treat your baby like a kitten.

Ah, so we’re getting somewhere with that. We can agree, then, that calling a child with a vagina a “boy” isn’t inherently a question of truth or falsehood. The meaning of the term depends on how it’s being used.

What matters is how we treat the child, what practical consequences follow from that categorisation, and whether those consequences are justified. Those are substantive questions that require evidence and reasoning, not simply an insistence on a particular definition

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.