Men at David Lloyd, moaning and whining because the spa is female only for 2 measly hours a week

[Lemieux7]

🙄 sorry about DM link - it’s the only one not behind a paywall. Men on the Facebook group are saying that women should join female only gyms.

https://www.dailymail.com/news/article-16211821/amp/David-Lloyd-sparks-equality-row-excluding-men.html

Straw man.

Straight up mockery of your non sequitur.

Straw man.
i was asked to comment on a post i made on a different thread.

Have the men at your club or David Lloyd generally asked for single sex times in the spa @PastMidnight ?

Under 16s pay a much reduced rate and when their parents sign them up, it is made clear thst there are restrictions on use of certain services.

The difficulty with the spa proposal is that people have signed up to a pretty expensive contract on the basis of having access to the facilities when they want them. No one said there would be regular slots when they could not use tgese facilities. 2 hours per week may not seem a lot but it is if that's when you use the gym.

Imo they should put separate female only facilities in when they refurbish their spas, where possible. They should be much stricter about behaviour - i am a member and have never seen any campaigns about this. They should have robust policies and staff trained on implementing them. Women should feel safe all the time, not just for 2 hours per week.

I suspect that the reason management didn’t tell us about the ban on men on Thursday evenings is because people would have suggested creating women only facilities during the refurbishment. Now that the refurbishment is complete, it’s fait accompli and DL didn’t have to incur the additional cost. A simple case of profit before principles.

From the 'pretty expensive contract'

We have the right to increase, reduce or withdraw certain facilities, services or activities in any of our clubs either permanently or temporarily

Always read everything you sign.

I have no idea. The first I knew of the ban on men was when I was at the club a few days ago. We, the paying members, were not, and have still not, been informed.

The least DL should do is provide the rationale behind this.

I have noticed a petition has been started online by a member of the Purley club so I imagine this is happening in a few clubs and it remains to be seen what David Lloyd will do about this.

I don't have much sympathy with those petitioning or claiming that this is a material change to their contract, even if they weren't made aware at the time of signing up. I haven't looked at the terms but I think it's pretty clear that not all facilities will be available all of the time and also that the offering can change. My club has changed in several ways since I signed up; some of the changes are beneficial to me (new equipment, longer opening hours), some of them aren't (different class times). By the way, I was made aware of the women's spa hours when I signed up and considered it a plus - and I imagine many others are in the same position.

Of course, if this restriction means that some men find this gym no longer meets their needs, they are free to take their business elsewhere. But I suspect they won't... in fact, I suspect the type of man complaining about this probably has more of an ideological problem with being told no than a genuine concern about his inability to access a service for two hours a week.

You can’t take your business elsewhere if you’ve already paid for the full year, as we have. There’s also a notice period for those who pay monthly.

Pointing at the small print does not maintain customer goodwill, nor does it promote good member relations at the club, where in my own experience, people have always got along well and they are a nice, sociable bunch.

I think it’s perfectly understandable if men have an ideological problem with this. I do too. It’s blatant sexism, legal or not.

Have you tried cancelling on this basis and getting them to waive cancellation fee/refund? I expect they would (based on my own discussions on a separate issue) - if this is a significant enough issue for you.

And no one is saying it isn't discriminatory. But a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

Of course you don't why would you? You think racism and sexism are the same thing. At least you say that's what you think.

No, not yet. I am awaiting replies from DL, as I suspect others are.

You say no-one is saying this isn’t discriminatory. Have you read any of the other posts on this thread? Most are not only saying it’s not discriminatory but posting vile, hateful comments about men, purely for being men. If the boot were on the other foot, you’d think it was written by a Tate brother. People need to practise what they preach.

Oh dear. Where have I said sexism and racism are the same thing? Please don’t put words into my mouth.

You don’t understand the law or you don’t understand the posts about it. It’s been mentioned several times that this is lawful discrimination.

What vile, hateful comments about men? Crime stats? People’s experiences?

Yes I have. The vast majority of posts are people posting their experiences of and concerns about sharing spas with men. As I said, I've found that there are groups of men who behave in an antisocial and dominant way in DL spas (and unfortunately DL does little about it) - that's not 'just for being men', it is based on my own experience of how the men in my DL behave. Is it all single-sex provision you object to or just this example?

The Purley petition has achieved 58 signatures over a two week period.

The average David Lloyd club has a membership of 6,000 and Purley is one of the larger clubs, so probably more than 6,000 members there.

Less than 1% of their membership cares enough about this to sign the petition.

The gym going folk of Purley clearly aren't as riled about this as @PastMidnight.

I agree that it's lawful discrimination. I'm glad you also now agree that it's discrimination.

I have not discussed the law at all, in any of my posts on this thread. It is not relevant to my posts. But thank you for your patronising reply anyway.

I don't object to single sex provision at all, and nowhere have I said that I do. In fact, I've specifically said that I don't object to it. Although I acknowledge that this thread has become rather long so it's hard to remember who said what.

This thread has taken an unusual turn for the feminist board I feel. Women posting their experiences of being harassed by men in saunas and steam rooms have been told they are stealth boasting and being vile and hateful about the men.

Very unusual hmmm 🤔

Great that you ask where do you draw the line. You provide an excellent example yourself.

Earlier you refer to people with green eyes. Discrimination on this basis would obviously be arbitrary and wrong (unless there's something you know about the green-eyed that I don't).

Women here are referring to on males, who commit 98%+ of sexual assault and are up to 120% stronger than females, thereby enabling this.

I don't honestly think you could get a clearer indication of absence of need for any line (your green eyes at 0% difference in risk) and justification for a line (my near-100% difference in risk).

Aston explains this beautifully in her longer post a few pages ago.

ETA: Obviously, even then, the disadvantage to men - which I can acknowledge here - means that thought and care is needed in implementing a policy like this. Hence Aston's explanation of the law - laws democratically developed on the basis of extensive data - as well as the financial imperative etc. Drawing a line requires making a judgement call. But the judgement call doesn't get any clearer than the quite frankly extreme stats above.

Can you specify what you think might happen to you in a spa that is potentially dangerous, that cannot happen in other public places such as libraries or supermarkets?

Or do you think we should segregate men and women in all public places, Afghanistan style?

In libraries and supermarkets, women are not in a state of undress.

Yeah, I’ll bet these people are the same ones who think women should be grateful to be cat-called 🙄