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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men at David Lloyd, moaning and whining because the spa is female only for 2 measly hours a week

318 replies

Lemieux7 · 15/10/2026 18:55

๐Ÿ™„ sorry about DM link - itโ€™s the only one not behind a paywall. Men on the Facebook group are saying that women should join female only gyms.

https://www.dailymail.com/news/article-16211821/amp/David-Lloyd-sparks-equality-row-excluding-men.html

David Lloyd sparks equality row by excluding men from spa areas

The exclusive gym group has introduced weekly women-only spa sessions in several of its branches due toย what it described as 'significant feedback' from female members.

https://www.dailymail.com/news/article-16211821/amp/David-Lloyd-sparks-equality-row-excluding-men.html

OP posts:
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6
CarbonelKitten · 19/10/2026 22:19

PastMidnight · 19/10/2026 22:14

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what dreadful things might happen to them in David Lloyd spa. Would you like to start?

Why does it have to be a 'dreadful thing' to justify a simple boundary? You're completely catastrophizing the argument just to try and win a point.

Realistically, no one is expecting a horror movie scenario. The reality is that many men in these mixed spaces can be incredibly loud, obnoxious, sexist, leering and dominant. It is just nice for women to have a couple of hours a week where they don't have to be subjected to that environment and can relax in peace.

You keep trying to frame a basic desire for a quiet, comfortable space as some sort of massive human rights violation against men. It's really not that deep.

PastMidnight · 19/10/2026 22:21

Bedtime reading:

Ad Hominem
No True Scotsman
The Anecdotal Fallacy (Reverse)

Have fun!

AstonUniversityPotholeDepartment · 19/10/2026 22:22

PastMidnight · 19/10/2026 22:13

Do you have a monopoly on expecting that disabled people should have equal rights to able-bodied people? I don't think so. I'll defend whomsoever I choose to defend. But thank you anyway.

Aaaaand there it is. The single-minded, simplistic focus on "equal" as if that is the only measure of fairness. If someone gave you a big enough megaphone, I confidently believe you could get all manner of provision for people with disabilities removed within a week. The work of decades that has brought us tiny breadcrumbs of carved out time would all be undone. Goodbye, weekly swimming session a week, goodbye to monthly relaxed screenings at the cinema.

If you have a class of 20 kids (including Barry who is blind and only reads braille), and you give them all a copy of the same edition of Of Mice and Men, it may be "equal", but you are excluding Barry. He needs a copy in Braille.

DorsetKnobBiscuit · 19/10/2026 22:25

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Arran2024 · 19/10/2026 22:35

Talkinpeace · 19/10/2026 21:37

I've not RTFT
but there is a distinct misconception by many posters.

Lots of David Lloyd clubs DO NOT HAVE SPAs

the poolside mixed sex Sauna, Steam room, Hot tubs and pools
are not a spa.
They are all hours all access facilities

The clubs that have had a spa added are different
it is separated from the main club
and can be easily made single sex for a few hours

My tiny David Lloyd club calls the poolside jacuzzi, steam room and sauna "the spa".

AstonUniversityPotholeDepartment · 19/10/2026 22:39

DorsetKnobBiscuit · 19/10/2026 22:15

We might meet you.

Or encounter swingers urging you to shag them for the future of the human race.

PastMidnight · 19/10/2026 22:40

CarbonelKitten · 19/10/2026 22:19

Why does it have to be a 'dreadful thing' to justify a simple boundary? You're completely catastrophizing the argument just to try and win a point.

Realistically, no one is expecting a horror movie scenario. The reality is that many men in these mixed spaces can be incredibly loud, obnoxious, sexist, leering and dominant. It is just nice for women to have a couple of hours a week where they don't have to be subjected to that environment and can relax in peace.

You keep trying to frame a basic desire for a quiet, comfortable space as some sort of massive human rights violation against men. It's really not that deep.

Various posters have said they felt 'in danger' (and similar) in the spa. I thought that sounded pretty dreadful. Don't you think so? Are you belittling their feelings? Shame on you. :(

CarbonelKitten · 19/10/2026 22:48

Oh, give it a rest. No one is belittling anyone's feelings except you.

You asked a bad-faith question demanding to know what 'dreadful things' happen in spas. I pointed out that single-sex spaces are necessary for the whole spectrum of women's comfortโ€”ranging from serious safeguarding against men who make them feel in danger, right down to just wanting a break from loud, obnoxious behaviour.

You're only pretending to care about women feeling 'in danger' now because your original consumer-rights argument collapsed and you're desperate for a comeback. If you actually cared about those women feeling unsafe, you wouldn't be fighting so aggressively to strip them of the two hours a week that make them feel secure.

PastMidnight · 19/10/2026 23:00

CarbonelKitten · 19/10/2026 22:48

Oh, give it a rest. No one is belittling anyone's feelings except you.

You asked a bad-faith question demanding to know what 'dreadful things' happen in spas. I pointed out that single-sex spaces are necessary for the whole spectrum of women's comfortโ€”ranging from serious safeguarding against men who make them feel in danger, right down to just wanting a break from loud, obnoxious behaviour.

You're only pretending to care about women feeling 'in danger' now because your original consumer-rights argument collapsed and you're desperate for a comeback. If you actually cared about those women feeling unsafe, you wouldn't be fighting so aggressively to strip them of the two hours a week that make them feel secure.

Ok, so you canโ€™t give me a single example of how a man in the spa may constitute a danger to a woman in the spa. And neither can anyone else.

So leaving aside the drama, what this boils down to is that some women would prefer not to be around men for two hours. How about everyone discusses this on that basis then?

it simply weakens the argument for women in situations where a strong argument is required, when we play victim and bleat on about nothing when what we mean is something completely different from what we are saying.

For your information, the thrust of my argument has from the start been about discrimination, not consumer rights, should you wish to check back and trouble yourself with the truth.

PastMidnight · 20/10/2026 00:32

AstonUniversityPotholeDepartment · 19/10/2026 22:22

Aaaaand there it is. The single-minded, simplistic focus on "equal" as if that is the only measure of fairness. If someone gave you a big enough megaphone, I confidently believe you could get all manner of provision for people with disabilities removed within a week. The work of decades that has brought us tiny breadcrumbs of carved out time would all be undone. Goodbye, weekly swimming session a week, goodbye to monthly relaxed screenings at the cinema.

If you have a class of 20 kids (including Barry who is blind and only reads braille), and you give them all a copy of the same edition of Of Mice and Men, it may be "equal", but you are excluding Barry. He needs a copy in Braille.

You might find that your efforts are better spent attacking people who donโ€™t give a flying fig about disabled people rather than people like me who care, but apparently (innocently) used incorrect terminology.

Itโ€™s like walking on eggshells around here.

JellySaurus · 20/10/2026 07:13

PastMidnight · 19/10/2026 22:14

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what dreadful things might happen to them in David Lloyd spa. Would you like to start?

Is it beyond your comprehension that a significant proportion of women in the UK have been abused by men, and therefore cannot feel safe around men, especially in a state of undress? Does another dreadful thing have to happen to them in the David Lloyd spa before a single sex space can be justified for them? Do they have to reveal their trauma in order to justify a single sex space?

PastMidnight · 20/10/2026 07:27

JellySaurus · 20/10/2026 07:13

Is it beyond your comprehension that a significant proportion of women in the UK have been abused by men, and therefore cannot feel safe around men, especially in a state of undress? Does another dreadful thing have to happen to them in the David Lloyd spa before a single sex space can be justified for them? Do they have to reveal their trauma in order to justify a single sex space?

If you could name even one dreadful thing that has happened them in a David Lloyd spa it would be helpful if youโ€™re arguing that men should be banned from there. If on the other hand youโ€™re using the plight of abused women just to win an internet argument, that would be unforgivable. Carbonelkitten believes that nothing dreadful has happened in a DL spa and that to suggest it has, is catastrophising the argument. Do you agree with her?

CarbonelKitten · 20/10/2026 07:44

Stop putting words in my mouth to prop up your failing argument. If you actually read my posts, I said the exact opposite. Leering, offensive comments, and men on phones violating womenโ€™s privacy are dreadful, intimidating behaviours. It is exactly why women are leaving these clubs, and exactly why David Lloyd introduced these slots.

Your strategy on this thread has been completely inconsistent. First you complained about membership contracts. Then you tried a legal angle, but backtracked and admitted you hadn't read the Equality Act when challenged. Now youโ€™ve pivoted to demanding hyper-specific crime data for gym spas

You keep moving the goalposts because your arguments are collapsing. Stop demanding that women prove a catastrophic physical assault has occurred before they are allowed basic privacy in a state of undress.

JellySaurus · 20/10/2026 07:48

PastMidnight · 20/10/2026 07:27

If you could name even one dreadful thing that has happened them in a David Lloyd spa it would be helpful if youโ€™re arguing that men should be banned from there. If on the other hand youโ€™re using the plight of abused women just to win an internet argument, that would be unforgivable. Carbonelkitten believes that nothing dreadful has happened in a DL spa and that to suggest it has, is catastrophising the argument. Do you agree with her?

Bingo card:
weaponising abuse โœ”๏ธ
nothing bad happens/if something bad happens, thenโ€ฆ โœ”๏ธ

How boringly predictable.

AstonUniversityPotholeDepartment · 20/10/2026 07:49

PastMidnight · 20/10/2026 00:32

You might find that your efforts are better spent attacking people who donโ€™t give a flying fig about disabled people rather than people like me who care, but apparently (innocently) used incorrect terminology.

Itโ€™s like walking on eggshells around here.

It's sweet of you to give me advice, but I'm much better placed to gauge how to invest my time. You also massively overestimate how much effort it takes to tell you that you would do more harm than good.

As for "(innocently) used incorrect terminology", come off it. Grin You spent 12 hours yesterday wilfully and deliberately ignoring all explanations addressing the flaws in your understanding of equality and inclusion. I definitely recall explaining why "treating everyone the same" led to discrimination against disabled people, using anonymised real examples.

Oh look, here's part of my explanation.

First of all, achieving equality is far more complex than 'treating everyone the same' because that often leads to indirect discrimination.

Imagine a secondary school where you are allowed five minutes to get from one classroom to another. If you are late for your next lesson, you get a detention and this applies to all children to be equal. Unfortunately, 11 year old Brian is in a self-propelled wheelchair and his geography lesson is on the third floor, right after English on the ground floor, and the lift is on the opposite side of the building from both classrooms. The fastest he can do it, if the other children give way to him and give him priority for the lift is 13 minutes, so he's getting detention every week.

This is based on a real example. Is it fair? No. Is it legal? No. But the adults involved thought it was, because their understanding of fairness and equality had not advanced since they were five years old. Sorry, did that sound snide? It was meant to, don't worry.

In fact, this is actually an example of indirect discrimination against someone with a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010, because the rules (and the thoughtless timetabling) mean that Brian and other children like Brian are being put at disadvantage because they are disabled and cannot travel fast enough to meet the school rules.

Now, let's move on to the legality of specific services. There are nine different protected characteristics: age, race, sex, pregnancy and maternity, gender reassignment, religion or belief, disability, marriage or civil partnership, and sexual orientation. Sometimes providing equal access to services means providing services for people with only that protected characteristic.

First example: you may have noticed that sexual health clinics run men's-only sessions, women's-only sessions and gay/bisexual men's only sessions. This is legal under the Equality Act 2010, because the people who attend these clinics wouldn't necessarily attend an all access drop in clinic. If the NHS refused to provide specialised sessions, when they are aware that multiple sections of the population won't be comfortable with attending a general walk-in clinic service, that amounts to indirect exclusion of those groups from accessing healthcare.

For our second example, we'll return to leisure centres. I doubt you see it at David Lloyd, but at cheaper centres and council-owned centres, they will often have sessions specifically for people with learning disabilities and their carers. Presumably some would expect me to be up in arms that I have a monthly membership, and yet I cannot go swimming for that particular hour and a half in each week. Au contraire!

I am fully aware that I have the entire week to access the pool, and that for those with learning disabilities, it's the only time they can go or the only time their carers feel it's safe to take them. The leisure centre isn't discriminating against me, it's fulfilling its duties under the Equality Act by providing a ringfenced session for learning disabilities.

CarbonelKitten · 20/10/2026 07:54

The rhetoric from some posters on this thread is giving me massive flashbacks to arguing with TRAs on Twitter. No matter how clearly or patiently women explain their boundaries and safety concerns, it is completely ignored.

They simply cannotโ€”or refuse toโ€”understand, because they haven't moved through the world in a female body and haven't had to navigate the lifelong safety assessments that women do from puberty onwards.

Instead, they treat women's basic boundaries as an intellectual puzzle, an insult to men, or demand "empirical proof" of a catastrophic assault before they will grant women two hours of privacy. TRAs and MRAs really are cut from the exact same clothโ€”the absolute entitlement to cross women's boundaries is identical.

PastMidnight · 20/10/2026 08:09

CarbonelKitten · 20/10/2026 07:54

The rhetoric from some posters on this thread is giving me massive flashbacks to arguing with TRAs on Twitter. No matter how clearly or patiently women explain their boundaries and safety concerns, it is completely ignored.

They simply cannotโ€”or refuse toโ€”understand, because they haven't moved through the world in a female body and haven't had to navigate the lifelong safety assessments that women do from puberty onwards.

Instead, they treat women's basic boundaries as an intellectual puzzle, an insult to men, or demand "empirical proof" of a catastrophic assault before they will grant women two hours of privacy. TRAs and MRAs really are cut from the exact same clothโ€”the absolute entitlement to cross women's boundaries is identical.

Oh I see. You are unable to substantiate your arguments with logic or facts so weโ€™re back to argumentum ad hominem, questioning my motives and what my gender is. ( โ€œOnly a man could possibly argue that discrimination against men is wrongโ€)

We got there in the end, as I knew we wouid.

CarbonelKitten · 20/10/2026 08:18

Pointing out that you are using identical rhetorical tactics to MRAs and TRAs isn't an ad hominem attackโ€”it is an accurate observation of your debate style.

You have repeatedly moved the goalposts because your arguments on contracts, membership fees, and the law completely collapsed under scrutiny. Now that you've been called out for twisting my words and demanding that women "prove" they've been traumatised in a specific spa just to justify two hours of privacy, you are trying to play the victim.

We see you ๐Ÿ‘€

PastMidnight · 20/10/2026 08:37

CarbonelKitten · 20/10/2026 07:44

Stop putting words in my mouth to prop up your failing argument. If you actually read my posts, I said the exact opposite. Leering, offensive comments, and men on phones violating womenโ€™s privacy are dreadful, intimidating behaviours. It is exactly why women are leaving these clubs, and exactly why David Lloyd introduced these slots.

Your strategy on this thread has been completely inconsistent. First you complained about membership contracts. Then you tried a legal angle, but backtracked and admitted you hadn't read the Equality Act when challenged. Now youโ€™ve pivoted to demanding hyper-specific crime data for gym spas

You keep moving the goalposts because your arguments are collapsing. Stop demanding that women prove a catastrophic physical assault has occurred before they are allowed basic privacy in a state of undress.

Nowhere have I argued, or become involved in, any discussions about the legal side of the argument but if you think otherwise, please feel free to quote me verbatim from the posts you are claiming I made.

I have only replied to other posters asking questions about my contract. I have never initiated any discussions about contracts but if you think otherwise, please feel free to quote me verbatim from the posts you are claiming I made.

I did not put words into your mouth. I quoted you from your previous post.

Questioning my motives is another of the logical fallacies that you, and others, have employed throughout this thread. Google โ€˜circumstantial ad hominemโ€™.

You know nothing about who I am, whether I have been abused and what my gender is. You only know what I tell you, and vice versa, but either of us could be lying. I could say that your aggressive manner of posting must mean youโ€™re a man but unlike you, I prefer to deal with logic and facts. Besides, labelling all men as aggressive simply because they have a penis, is not something I engage in. You may wish to consider this when making sweeping statements and stereotyping regarding gender.

CarbonelKitten · 20/10/2026 09:36

@PastMidnight If you want verbatim quotes from your own posts, Iโ€™m happy to oblige. You opened your very first comment on this thread complaining bitterly that you and your boyfriend pay for a couples' membership and that David Lloyd was exercising "blatant discrimination against 50% of its members." Claiming you "never initiated any discussions about contracts" or discrimination when that was literally your opening gambit is completely transparent rewriting of history.

As for twisting my wordsโ€”you deliberately dragged my username into a confrontation with another poster, claiming: "Carbonelkitten believes that nothing dreadful has happened in a DL spa and that to suggest it has, is catastrophising the argument. Do you agree with her?"

That is an absolute fabrication. I have repeatedly posted detailing real-world, intimidating male behaviourโ€”including leering, offensive comments, and men on mobile phones violating privacyโ€”and stated that these are dreadful behaviours forcing women to leave the club. You tried to twist that into me saying "nothing dreadful happens" to suit your own narrative.

Telling women to google "circumstantial ad hominem" because we pointed out that your boundary-crossing debate style perfectly mirrors MRA/TRA rhetoric isn't the intellectual mic-drop you think it is. You completely ran out of arguments on contracts, fees, and the reality of female safety, so now you're relying on pseudo-intellectual deflections and playing the victim.

Arran2024 · 20/10/2026 09:53

But making the space women only for two hours a week is minimal effort for David Lloyd. It is not addressing the main problem, which is the behaviour of some of its male members. This is a sticking plaster approach to a real problem which they need to address through robust policies, cancelling memberships, making expected behaviour clear etc. Women should feel safe all the time in the spa, not just for 2 hours one evening a week.

I go to DL during the day as I am retired. I don't see much bad behaviour though it's half term next week and we will no doubt have the older teens making out and boys play fighting each other in the pool, which DL also ignore. They are a company with a really lax attitude to bad behaviour of any type imo.

PastMidnight · 20/10/2026 09:53

CarbonelKitten · 20/10/2026 09:36

@PastMidnight If you want verbatim quotes from your own posts, Iโ€™m happy to oblige. You opened your very first comment on this thread complaining bitterly that you and your boyfriend pay for a couples' membership and that David Lloyd was exercising "blatant discrimination against 50% of its members." Claiming you "never initiated any discussions about contracts" or discrimination when that was literally your opening gambit is completely transparent rewriting of history.

As for twisting my wordsโ€”you deliberately dragged my username into a confrontation with another poster, claiming: "Carbonelkitten believes that nothing dreadful has happened in a DL spa and that to suggest it has, is catastrophising the argument. Do you agree with her?"

That is an absolute fabrication. I have repeatedly posted detailing real-world, intimidating male behaviourโ€”including leering, offensive comments, and men on mobile phones violating privacyโ€”and stated that these are dreadful behaviours forcing women to leave the club. You tried to twist that into me saying "nothing dreadful happens" to suit your own narrative.

Telling women to google "circumstantial ad hominem" because we pointed out that your boundary-crossing debate style perfectly mirrors MRA/TRA rhetoric isn't the intellectual mic-drop you think it is. You completely ran out of arguments on contracts, fees, and the reality of female safety, so now you're relying on pseudo-intellectual deflections and playing the victim.

Thank you for confirming that my opening point concerned discrimination against men, backed up by the evidence of my contract with David Lloyd. I like to back up my points with facts.

Did you manage to find any posts that you claim I wrote concerning legal arguments? I thought not, as you have now dropped that. I find it best to check facts before posting falsehoods. You might want to try it.

"As for twisting my wordsโ€”you deliberately dragged my username into a confrontation with another poster, claiming: "Carbonelkitten believes that nothing dreadful has happened in a DL spa and that to suggest it has, is catastrophising the argument. Do you agree with her?"
That is an absolute fabrication."

You, yesterday at 20:19
"Why does it have to be a 'dreadful thing' to justify a simple boundary? You're completely catastrophizing the argument just to try and win a point.
Realistically, no one is expecting a horror movie scenario."

"Telling women to google "circumstantial ad hominem" because we pointed out that your boundary-crossing debate style perfectly mirrors MRA/TRA rhetoric isn't the intellectual mic-drop you think it is."

Who is "we"? It was only you. Or is that a royal "we"?

"You completely ran out of arguments on contracts, fees, and the reality of female safety,"

Here we go again with the logical fallacies. Argumetum ad nauseam. Google it.

PastMidnight · 20/10/2026 10:04

Arran2024 · 20/10/2026 09:53

But making the space women only for two hours a week is minimal effort for David Lloyd. It is not addressing the main problem, which is the behaviour of some of its male members. This is a sticking plaster approach to a real problem which they need to address through robust policies, cancelling memberships, making expected behaviour clear etc. Women should feel safe all the time in the spa, not just for 2 hours one evening a week.

I go to DL during the day as I am retired. I don't see much bad behaviour though it's half term next week and we will no doubt have the older teens making out and boys play fighting each other in the pool, which DL also ignore. They are a company with a really lax attitude to bad behaviour of any type imo.

It's all about money for them. I believe they are carrying a lot of debt.