What should trans people actually do?

[BTT]

I'm making the assumption that gender identity exists and that there can be a mismatch between it and sex which will likely cause distress and a desire for trans people to find a safer and more comfortable place in society somehow.

I'm talking about practical measures to minimize problems for trans and non-trans people. Please respond only if you have some reasonable ideas.

No.

Ok. Thank you for your contribution.

As gender reassignment clearly references gender, not sex, then I cannot see the problem
What does that even mean?

Disadvantage due to gender reassignment can still be discrimination

Examples in the guidance need to be read in the context of the paragraph of which they are an example. Example 13.123 is specifically in reference to cases where it would be proportionate to provide a mixed of services - it doesn't say that it would be discriminatory to only provide single sex spaces/services and neither does the example

13.122 In many cases, it will be proportionate to take a holistic approach to service provision by providing a mix of services which may include both separate or single-sex services and mixed-sex services. The mix of services in terms of the size of the separate or single-sex services and of the mixed-sex services should reflect the needs and relative numbers of service users with different needs.

Example
13.123 A service provider operates a shopping centre and decides to renovate the centre. It initially intends to only provide separate-sex toilets to improve the safety and comfort of users. This disadvantages trans people because it means that a trans person cannot access a toilet catered towards their acquired gender. They also note that this option may cause safety risks and distress for trans users if required to use the toilets designated for those of the same biological sex. The service provider therefore decides to also provide toilets in individual lockable rooms with handbasins, which can be used by people of either sex.

unsafe and uncomfortable

Which do you really mean? Can you show evidence of them being unsafe without that word really meaning uncomfortable?

Yet to hear why TIM's can't use the men's loo's, the men's have cubicles so there's no reason a man who can't use an urinal can't still use the men's.
I've yet to hear why it would be unsafe for a man to use the men's and why it's a woman's job to solve a man's problem.

We’re ’so insistent’ because it’s the law.

Similarly I’m quite ‘insistent’ that people shouldn’t use disabled parking spaces if they don’t have the relevant badge.

Blunt, but yes this.

what does that have to do with alternative spaces?

Therapy to help them learn to accept their sexed body.

For men who don't feel they're men, they could do with some good old feminist analysis of sex-based stereotypes - they could analyse & deconstruct the way that masculinity disciplines men.

And they could then do what women like Mary Wollstonecraft and the suffragettes did - get active in breaking down gender roles & sex-based stereotypes, to find a way of living that allows them to be less masculine.

And they could be brave about being a so-called "feminine" man. Many women throughout history have been courageous in this way - they've fought for their freedom to be a fully human person, not constrained by oppressive sex-based stereotypes. For women this has taken huge amounts of courage (women were chucked in mental asylums for rebelling against oppressive femininity, or force-fed in prison for hunger striking for the vote).

So men could gather up some courage. But they rarely do, because to challenge masculinity in the way that women have challenged oppressive femininity for centuries, would be to give up the power that comes with masculinity. Including the power to force women to call them "her."

Of course, if a man is an autogynephile, it's a sexual fetish, and that would mean self-knowledge, honesty and a shedload of therapy to help him overcome a distressing desire that is getting in the way of honest relationships with integrity.

Laws against discrimination on the grounds of gender reassignment are clearly laid out in the Equality act. Toilet provision is not included.

Quite.

Why does a trans woman (a gender non conforming man)‘s feelings of being uncomfortable in a space with those of the same sex, trump a woman’s feelings of being uncomfortable being in a space with a man?

We are constantly told if a man wants to do you harm they’ll do it anyway (in bathrooms). The sign on the door is irrelevant. So why would trans women be safer in the women’s then?

Lastly, can someone finally provide stats on trans women being attacked in male bathrooms. That would be appreciated.

Why not? Why couldn’t it be indirect gender reassignment discrimination to not provide a mixed sex spaces for those people? It can be indirect sex discrimination to only provide mixed sex spaces, so why specifically can’t the opposite apply?

This is reaching/wishful thinking on your part. There is zero indication in current law that this would be the case.

This is an interest exchange that happened at the Women and Equalities select committee. I think there is some indication that it could be gender reassignment discrimination but as always it depends on the specific situation.

Nadia Whittome: Very briefly, just going back to third spaces in the
NHS, obviously availability of side rooms is very limited. Would a trans
person whose care is delayed while finding an available third space side
room for them be able to claim gender reassignment discrimination?

Dr Stephenson: It would depend on the circumstances. If it is a
situation where you have a rule that applies to everyone—that they would
be expected to use a single-sex space and then they cannot and you
provide another space—that might be indirect discrimination. It is very
fact-specific so it is hard to give a concrete answer; it would depend on
the circumstances of the case. That is a potential issue and is one reason
why service providers need to think about making sure they provide
services to everybody.

If you want to cling on to this you are more than welcome to. We can all see what the law actually says.

You’re asking why we’re ’insistent’ that trans people share with their own sex and the answer is ‘it’s the law’, unless there is a third space available.

What sort of campaigning have you done so far for third spaces? I can think of quite a lot of feminists who would support you in that. It’s mystifying as to why so few trans people seem to have been campaigning for it in all these years.

That’s nice. I’m sure the lovely transpeople will be very grateful

It's hard isn't it?

At what point does someone's belief about other people become so unreasonable it can no longer be accomodated?

It's like some religions with strict rules about sex segregation. Society says "you can live your beliefs and you are welcome to do everything you can to avoid the other sex on your own account. However, we will not accomodate you by restricting the freedom of the opposite sex so you do not ever encounter or interact with them. If that means your ability to function within society is compromised, that is your choice to make."

Trans people have very strong beliefs about what type of personalities align to each sex. They have every right to believe that. However, most people do not believe personalities align to sex, and many people find that suggestion reductive and sexist. So eventually, there has to be a point we say no. No, trans people are not in reality some third, or other sex, or mentally aligned with the oppoiste sex, even if they believe they are.

I personally believe that point should have been recongised a long time ago, when (some parts of) society first suggested it was reasonable that a man could live "as a woman" if he adopted certain types of dress and mannerism. I believe that was a function of a more sexist cultural background and enshrining it in laws today is anachronistic.

I also believe that if the main protagonists back then had been women pushing to be accepted as men rather than vice versa, it would never have gained traction. I think that if the popular image of so called "sex change" surgery had been a woman made into a "man" by attaching a non-functioning phallus rather than a man made into a "woman" by removing the penis and creating a hole, men would never have accepted it as valid.

Nevertheless, we are where we are. As things stand, for whatever reason, society is currently accomodating the belief some people have that their personality or self image is incompatible with others of the same sex. But that's not the same as treating the belief as real. So to what degree does society say "we understand that being with others of your sex is distressing for you so we will build extra provisions for you" and to what degree does society say "we understand that being with others of your sex is distressing for you, but that is something you will have to find a way to live with"?

I guess we will discover with time how much gender reassignment much be accommodated in terms of mixed sex spaces

OP, this is Mumsnet. This is the angry, furious, TERFy Mumsnet Women’s Rights board. This is the wrong place to try to discuss how women (I refuse to use natal or cis, they’re not necessary) can help to solve men’s perceived problems arising from legally being denied access to female SSS.
For many, many years there has been a social contract whereby ordinary and decent men stay out of our SSS. Didn’t need policing except for a very tiny minority of predators.
As many others here have said, please use your energy to campaign for additional spaces but do not expect any help from us and do not think that we will ever accept men in what are and what will remain our safe spaces.
I have empathy with anyone who is uncomfortable in their skin and wish them well.
Our rights were hard fought for. Suggest you do the same but leave us out of it.

I think chasing knows exactly what this board is like - they have a very familiar posting style. I very much doubt this is their first visit.

As it’s got nothing to do with sex I’d hazard to no degree

But as gender and sex are different, why should people with a trans identity use the mixed gender single sex facilities already available?