Can you be a fully trans inclusive feminist?

[Imdunfer]

Inspired from another thread where it was out of place so I brought it here.

Someone seemed to claim that it was possible to be both be a feminist and to be trans inclusive, where by trans inclusive they mean males in women's spaces and shortlists (the attitude to sport wasn't stated).

I don't believe that you can truly be both, do you?

Going back to the OP...

There's a few perspectives to consider.

1. principles vs practical. A woman whose focus is on practical support of women may say TWAW. Taken to its logical endpoint (womanhood is a mental feature, being female is not necessary) I think this is incompatible with Feminism unless one changes Feminism in a fundamental way to the detriment of the people for whom it was originally conceived (see point 2). If she was inundated with TW to the point it disrupted her support of women she might have to rethink, but while the actual TW using her support number zero to one she's going to accept the odd TW. I would still recognise her support of women is an act of practical Feminism even if I think her position on TW taken to its logical endpoint is not compatible with Feminism.
2. Female vs Feminine. Some people want to change the definition of woman to people of either sex who exhibit, or feel aligned with, character traits culturally seen as pertaining to women. Whether this is a reasonable concept in its own right or not, it doesn't take away the reality of sex, it just takes away its name to plonk it onto something else. So if you condider that Feminsm follows the word woman, then sure, you have trans inclusive Feminism. But it's not really anything to do with what was previously known as Feminism. The irony of course is that having a worldview that encompasses both the constructs of feminity, the reality of sex, and the tensions between them is absolutely a Feminist perspective. But it's a perspective that you can only have if you recognise the validity of women's existence as female people separate from "femininity"
3. Feminist Analysis vs Feminism. Feminist analysis absolutely has to consider men. We can't make sense of the position and construction and exploitatation and marginalisation women in patriarchy without considering the mirror of that, the position and construction and expectations and social enforcement of men's roles. But Feminism, while shining a light and offering a way forward for men, is ultimately about freeing women. We can't solve their roles for them, they have to work it out for themselves. Otherwise we are just playing out the same old "women's job is to make it ok for men" trope.
4. A label vs a thing.Whether you call it "Feminism" or not, a movement to answer the oppression and exploitation of the female half of humanity is justified. Arguing about whether it's "Feminism" or not is fetishing the word over the people. If you remember which people you are focusing on, there is no confusion, no complication.

Oh one more

Men want it to exist so could you really be arsed arguing with them?

Perhaps they could call it femininism instead.

Ah yes. And yes, I can be arsed.

No, you can't centre males and claim to be a feminist.
Nor can men be feminists.

And my feminism includes all females, whatever their race, their religion, their shoe size, the nasty ones, the nice ones, the funny ones, the weird ones, fat, thin, short, tall, women wearing trousers or a floaty frock.
It encompasses the ones who want to be included & the ones who hate feminists. The trad wives, the single women, the mums and the women in polyamourous communes.
It includes all the women on this thread shilling for transwomen, and it encompasses the women who want to cut their healthy bodies to simluate a male body.

But it doesn't include one single man. Ever.

And this is a hill I will die on.

I mostly like your post apart from including the reprobates who are trans inclusive, they can and they will die in their own pit of collusion.

So again, as a feminist, do you prioritise the needs of the woman or the wants of the man. If there are no men’s rape groups, why have men not set them up? If a woman is traumatised by a male presence so has to self exclude from a group that includes men who claim to be women, do you think that is ok? I notice your answer was about the man…. Not very feminist there

So you’re saying men are too thick to know about the patriarchy so they’ll listen to women telling them why they need it? If they will listen tho women about their, why won’t they listen when women tell them to stop raping and killing us?

Me too 👏

Inclusion and centring are two different words with different meanings, hope that helps.

No matter how much you obtusely intentionally misunderstand it , or shout that they mean the same thing in this context, which of corse I’m about to be bombarded with, doesn’t make it true.

and the OP knew she was posting this thread in an echo chamber so of corse the comments are mostly supporting , with a classy amount of snark, hyperbole, slippery slope and straw mans and disdain and lack of empathy for human beings.

and I’m not even a ‘fully trans inclusive feminist’

Who said anything about the males in the group making any decisions for women? They can work for female equality without making decisions for women.

I agree there's a lack of empathy for human beings. The female ones.

Men aren't women.

21 pages until somebody pulled the "echo chamber" card though. Quite good going these days.

I get your distaste, but no.
Feminism is for all females. Every single one, no matter how willfully blind they are, or the damage they do to other womens rights.

It's the crux of this whole debate - you can't pick and choose who feminism is for, it's based in biology.

The 'inclusive of men' people are trying to pick and choose - "I include THIS male who says he feels like a woman, but not that one who hasn't said it" which is just nonsense. All males (so not feminism in any way) or none.

Every woman.
No men.

are you denying it’s an echo chamber? because that is factually incorrect, if you post something in a forum in which you know most people agree with you … that’s an echo chamber . me stating what it is isn’t ’playing a card’, and suggesting that it is isn’t some clever trump

@murasaki
I don't think in general that there is "male" brain and "female" brain

There is a male (weaker) and a female (stronger) immune response which is related directly to having a Y chromosome and not an effect produced male hormones.

I include patronising women in my feminism.

Not chaps though.

Pot , meet kettle

It was bubbling up throughout the whole thread I think though.

And somehow you think that someone stating what it is, correctly, means you win , what exactly?

Goodness, all the empathy for women who don’t want to share female only spaces with men from “trans inclusive feminists” is overwhelming and humbling, to be sure

This place is the least "echo chamber" you can find to discuss these issues. We always get a very strong trans activist response.

You are mistaking two polarised points of view that have no middle ground with "an echo chamber".

"Two echo chambers" would be a more realistic description.

The sticking point always being whether a man can become a woman.

After 21 pages I remain of the view that you cannot be a feminist while you support biological men in female only spaces.

Are you ‘sensible GC’?

Echo chamber……..I did not think i would like this thread at first because it would invite the attack dogs and suspect posters on the trans rights side who are usually not women.

This marvellous echo chamber has produced JKR coming out, women who would not weesht, sex matters, and for women Scotland, amongst others.

For women Scotland being of the most effective strategic wing.

As far as i am concerned this board is the equivalent of Spare Rib with knobs on, and some.

The empathy for Jennifer Melle, racially abused by a paedophile because she correctly identified his sex. The empathy for sexual assault survivor Sandie Peggie, denied a female changing space and persecuted for complaining. The empathy for multiple nurses in Darlington when a man stripped down to his holey boxer shorts and they were told to use a non fire compliant cupboard to change in.

sooooo much empathy from the TRAs and their pitiful hangers on.