Can you be a fully trans inclusive feminist?

[Imdunfer]

Inspired from another thread where it was out of place so I brought it here.

Someone seemed to claim that it was possible to be both be a feminist and to be trans inclusive, where by trans inclusive they mean males in women's spaces and shortlists (the attitude to sport wasn't stated).

I don't believe that you can truly be both, do you?

Well if you mean including men in your feminism, then no. Feminism is about focusing on women’s needs.

No I don’t believe that you can be a feminist and think men should be included in female single sex spaces and categories.

Absolutely not, but I think lots of women vehemently believe that they are. Which is think is incredibly sad, that the internal misogyny is so deep, that they think that centring men in their feminism is a good kind thing.

No. How can handing over what little women have carved out for ourselves back to men be considered in any way feminism?

I think feminists can be inclusive by including transmen, but definitely not by including transwomen
ETA: by including transwomen in female single sex spaces and shortlists etc there will be biological women who either miss out on opportunities or simply can't use the spaces because there are men there.

No, it isn't possible.
I'd be interested to hear the reasoning of someone who thinks it is possible.

The principle only works if you truly believe that TWAW, and I haven’t yet met anyone that I thought truly believed it.

What you are left with is people who just want to be “kind”, to people they view as either so vulnerable they aren’t a risk to anyone or so dangerous they can’t be challenged.

None of it makes any logical sense, which is why it’s so frustrating and infuriating.

I am hoping someone will come along and explain it to us.

Well yes, transmen are obviously included, they are women.

Depends on the framework of feminism you ascribe to because there are different schools of thought. But having said that, feminism & liberalism are inextricably linked where personal liberty is emphasised encompassing bodily autonomy & self determination so its contradictory not to maintain this principle uniformly. In other words, what's good enough for me is good enough for thee.

That competing priorities & subsequent rights balancing requirements emerge from this principle as it implicates transpeople doesn't make it anti feminist because that would assume feminism means gender superiority not gender equality.

Feminism does not mean "gender" equality. Women's oppression is based in their biology. Biology matters. Sex matters. Feminism means SEX equality. Men are not and can never be women.

Yes of course.

Trans inclusive and exclusive feminism are just types of feminism. Like there are different types of socialism. Feminism just means that you believe that structural and societal power is unequally held by men and steps should be taken to address that. Different types of feminists have different approaches and ideas about the best ways to do that.

It doesn't matter how much someone who is trans inclusive tries to say that someone trans exclusive isnt a feminist or vice versa, the fact remains the same.

People often mistake their disagreement with a type of feminism for that school of thought not being feminism at all. People think this about other socio-political movements, too.

You'll find in proper academic circles with respected scholars, nobody thinks like this. It's only on the internet where you have the masses bashing away at their keyboards that you bump into this amateur school of thought.

That's not how its defined in the dictionary as in broadly. But of course individuals are entitled to their own interpretations.

Yes. I am and always have been one.

Why would transmen want to be included with women things? They want to live as a man so should go do that.

No. Feminism is not about centring the needs of men.

I always find it interesting that the principles of bodily autonomy and self determination are applied to the state of being male or female, but don’t apply otherwise.

So I can self identify as a man, but not as a 10 year old, or a 70 year old. (Both states as physically provable as being male or female)

I can’t self identify as ethnically Chinese or African or Native America.

I can’t self determine as physically disabled

So if bodily autonomy and self determination only go so far, why are the lines drawn at sex and not age, ethnicity, disability?

Is the point of the thread to discuss whether we individually believe TWAW or to discuss whether trans inclusive feminism exists? Shall we go back to the OP?

Thank you for your attempt to explain, it's appreciated.

But ...

It's nothing to do with gender. Feminism is about the biological sex of a disadvantaged section of society.

And it's nothing to do with "superiority", it's about equality for women in an unequal world.

feminism & liberalism are inextricably linked where personal liberty is emphasised encompassing bodily autonomy & self determination

How can feminism be inextricably linked with the bodily autonomy of men to self determine as women and take women's places in society?

That's an oxymoron.

If you are unable to identify one thing that differentiates a woman from a man in your worldview, I do struggle to see how you can be a feminist.

Those who claim to be have never answered this question honestly or in a non-circular manner (that I've seen).

Would love it if anyone can clear that up, yet from experience I am not optimistic.

You could be a feminist who fully includes trans men in your feminism and it would still make sense and remain female centred.

trans inclusive feminist is a massive oxymoron unless you’re including transmen, who are obviously female.

I can only speak anecdotally but I know several women who self identify as men. None of them use male toilets or in fact behave in any way I would recognise as typically male.

Regardless of how they feel about themselves though society should be permitting them access to women’s single sex spaces because they are women.

How do you square your feminism with your belief that male bodied people should be allowed to access single sex rape crisis centres at the expense of rape victims who for trauma / religious reasons would then no longer be able to access the same centre?

And how do you square your feminism with your belief that someone who has gone through male puberty should be able to compete against a natal girl or woman in a sport where strength, speed and muscle mass are key and therefore someone who has gone through male puberty will have such a distinct natural advantage that they will always win against a natal girl or woman?

I’m not being combative, I’m genuinely trying to understand.

Can you explain how you resolve the cognitive dissonance of being a feminist and putting the needs of men to be in women's spaces above the needs of women for them not to be there?