Can you be a fully trans inclusive feminist?

[Imdunfer]

Inspired from another thread where it was out of place so I brought it here.

Someone seemed to claim that it was possible to be both be a feminist and to be trans inclusive, where by trans inclusive they mean males in women's spaces and shortlists (the attitude to sport wasn't stated).

I don't believe that you can truly be both, do you?

@totino

All you are doing is defining a new way to group people and calling it "women" or "men".

I'm not saying your new groups are not valid in their own right, but they are not really relevent to the groups of people who were known as "women" and "men" ie the two human sexes.

Nor does the sexism the female half of humanity suffered and still suffers stop being a thing just because you decided you don't want to call us "women" any more (because you think you have a better use for the word.)

I understand that you may not have thought about it this way, because boring everyday people can get taken for granted where there are exotic marginalised identities around, but you do need to consider that when a male person says he is a "woman", or a female person "a man" they aren't just describing themselves, they are claiming a similarity of mind/character with other people. But those other people may not in fact see themselves that way.

This is the problem your type of definition runs into.

Because you are only thinking about the trans people, you can say things like "people know who they are better than you do", and miss that to make trans women women and trans men men, the second part of this has to be "and they know who you are better than you do as well!" - because otherwise it just doesn't work.

So at the end of the day your "inclusive" type of womanhood and feminism pushes out at least as many female people as it includes male, because many female people simply don't identify with this new type of mental womanhood, nor with a "Feminism" that tells us that the sexism we face is because other people can somehow sense our inner gender alignment rather than simply because they see we are female and therefore apply sexist shite.

Men who identify as women are not seen as actual women by most people, because most people know women are female. For the most part they are seen as psychologically fragile and volatile men. Vulnerable but not welcome in women’s spaces. The majority of straight men and lesbians don’t see them as part of their dating pool.

Just to be clear:

’Trans women’ are men
’Cis’ men are men

Yes, and it's also arguable that homophobia has its roots in misogyny - contempt for the feminine and for those who play the "female" role in sex. By that logic, "feminism" should include gay men.

Don’t they.

They don't know how it feels to constantly be vigilant to attack.

If you believe that, it tells me that you know very few men indeed. Ask some gen-X and older gay men how much of their young adulthood involved being constantly vigilant to attack. Fuck it, ask some scrawny straight ones, or some who just had the wrong accent in the wrong town.

I think this is a very important point, and to take it further, the organisation of a society doesn't rest entirely on laws, it also depends on people accepting laws even when they are not being watched, and are not in fear of punishment.

'Manners are more important than laws. Upon them, in great measure, the laws depend' [Edmund Burke]

Most people will not set fire to the contents of a postbox, although there is an opening which could easily accommodate a lit paraffin-soaked rag, and no-one is watching [I hope I haven't given anyone any ideas😏]

Another example is men respecting women-only spaces, without having to be physically restrained from entering them, 'the good men stay out so the bad men stand out' up to very recently held true in almost all cases.

It's also accepted that laws do not bend to accommodate everybody's feelings - if there is a 60mph speed limit, it applies to all drivers, even the ones who know they are such fantastic drivers that they can safely do 80, or the ones who identify as Max Verstappen. Or even actual Max Verstappen.

Where it is necessary to identify whether a person belongs to the group 'men' or the group 'women' - and so far I think almost everybody here has agreed that there are some circumstances where that is the case - the pragmatic, workable approach is to use the scientific evidence, not act on how individuals feel about the scientific evidence, or allow them to identify out of the scientific evidence.

Feminism that is inclusive of transwomen - ie men - is not feminism.

Misogyny is the sole uniting female experience.

The sole uniting female experience is being born of the female sex.

What you are doing is finding a something woman can experience, and then saying men who experience it are women, too.

If both men and women can experience something, it cannot be used as a proof one sex.

Hahahaha!

Mhmm you sure? Feels like that's a losing battle and tbh, I have no issue with calling someone a man or woman if they have the 'wrong' genitals because those words have always been applied based on appearances anyway. So, I can also suspend disbelief if someone isn't quite passing, for the sake of kindness. And it looks like that's what society is deciding, even while some drag their feet over it.

So.. focus on hardcore, inarguable facts only. Those genitals (and strength etc) only really matter when we're talking about private, unsupervised spaces. And then they really matter. And if I walk into one more fecking public bathroom, about to floss my teeth, pull my knickers out my ass or get changed or do a full-body mirror check, only to stop when I spot cameras installed because these are now penis&vagina bathrooms, I will go fecking ape shit.

They agree with you that transgender people are inauthentic and you are absolutely united in wanting to curtail their rights.

Can you tell me what curtailing their rights actually looks like in practical terms.

You do you.

Yes, which “rights” would those be?

Aaah… the ‘shut up pesky woman’ comment. Got it. Anyone who doesn’t see a transwoman as a man is not worth listening to. If they deny such a basic fact, what else do they deny - the earth is round, water is wet, gravity?

I’m not going to just roll over and give in to a group of men who want to dismantle woman’s spaces and services.

You do what you want 🙄

What rights are being curtailed?

Oooh, you’re so edgy!

Said by a man

I’m not a man. Female through and through.

lol not you the one you quoted

Time to add some updates

gender critical feminists are united with republicans and the far right in wanting to curtail mysterious “rights” that are never quite articulated

we judge whether people are men or women on appearance so there’s no point relying on sex to segregate spaces

gender critical feminists are a bit like the taliban

I believe my made up idea of why men can actually be women and always have been is morally and rationally superior to respecting women’s boundaries around men and their privacy and dignity

The thing is, those 98 people aren’t being ‘helped’ by ‘treatment’ because there’s no treatment that can extract a female from a male body or vice versa. So the treatment fails.

Treatment that allows the people who mistakenly believe they’re in the wrong body to understand and accept that it’s physically impossible to be in any body other than the one they’ve got is the only treatment that should be on offer.

I’ve just realised after reading your other replies 🤣🤣