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Original poster

Can you be a fully trans inclusive feminist?

956 replies

Imdunfer · 07/10/2026 08:29

Inspired from another thread where it was out of place so I brought it here.

Someone seemed to claim that it was possible to be both be a feminist and to be trans inclusive, where by trans inclusive they mean males in women's spaces and shortlists (the attitude to sport wasn't stated).

I don't believe that you can truly be both, do you?

OP posts:
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sosomewhereelse · 07/10/2026 22:37

Imdunfer · 07/10/2026 22:34

This place is the least "echo chamber" you can find to discuss these issues. We always get a very strong trans activist response.

You are mistaking two polarised points of view that have no middle ground with "an echo chamber".

"Two echo chambers" would be a more realistic description.

The sticking point always being whether a man can become a woman.

After 21 pages I remain of the view that you cannot be a feminist while you support biological men in female only spaces.

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You know full well that there’s a loud significant minority if not a majority of people who post on here who are ‘Gender Critical’ feminists. That is an echo chamber.

Original poster
Imdunfer · 07/10/2026 22:38

FlirtsWithRhinos · 07/10/2026 21:57

Going back to the OP...

There's a few perspectives to consider.

  1. principles vs practical. A woman whose focus is on practical support of women may say TWAW. Taken to its logical endpoint (womanhood is a mental feature, being female is not necessary) I think this is incompatible with Feminism unless one changes Feminism in a fundamental way to the detriment of the people for whom it was originally conceived (see point 2). If she was inundated with TW to the point it disrupted her support of women she might have to rethink, but while the actual TW using her support number zero to one she's going to accept the odd TW. I would still recognise her support of women is an act of practical Feminism even if I think her position on TW taken to its logical endpoint is not compatible with Feminism.
  2. Female vs Feminine. Some people want to change the definition of woman to people of either sex who exhibit, or feel aligned with, character traits culturally seen as pertaining to women. Whether this is a reasonable concept in its own right or not, it doesn't take away the reality of sex, it just takes away its name to plonk it onto something else. So if you condider that Feminsm follows the word woman, then sure, you have trans inclusive Feminism. But it's not really anything to do with what was previously known as Feminism. The irony of course is that having a worldview that encompasses both the constructs of feminity, the reality of sex, and the tensions between them is absolutely a Feminist perspective. But it's a perspective that you can only have if you recognise the validity of women's existence as female people separate from "femininity"
  3. Feminist Analysis vs Feminism. Feminist analysis absolutely has to consider men. We can't make sense of the position and construction and exploitatation and marginalisation women in patriarchy without considering the mirror of that, the position and construction and expectations and social enforcement of men's roles. But Feminism, while shining a light and offering a way forward for men, is ultimately about freeing women. We can't solve their roles for them, they have to work it out for themselves. Otherwise we are just playing out the same old "women's job is to make it ok for men" trope.
  4. A label vs a thing.Whether you call it "Feminism" or not, a movement to answer the oppression and exploitation of the female half of humanity is justified. Arguing about whether it's "Feminism" or not is fetishing the word over the people. If you remember which people you are focusing on, there is no confusion, no complication.
Edited

Excellent analysis!

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/10/2026 22:39

Hedgehogforshort · 07/10/2026 22:36

Echo chamber……..I did not think i would like this thread at first because it would invite the attack dogs and suspect posters on the trans rights side who are usually not women.

This marvellous echo chamber has produced JKR coming out, women who would not weesht, sex matters, and for women Scotland, amongst others.

For women Scotland being of the most effective strategic wing.

As far as i am concerned this board is the equivalent of Spare Rib with knobs on, and some.

it has been a wild ride and I have met friends for life through this board and gender critical feminism in general.

sosomewhereelse · 07/10/2026 22:40

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/10/2026 22:36

The empathy for Jennifer Melle, racially abused by a paedophile because she correctly identified his sex. The empathy for sexual assault survivor Sandie Peggie, denied a female changing space and persecuted for complaining. The empathy for multiple nurses in Darlington when a man stripped down to his holey boxer shorts and they were told to use a non fire compliant cupboard to change in.

sooooo much empathy from the TRAs and their pitiful hangers on.

I have huge empathy for those women. I also have empathy for many transgender people.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/10/2026 22:41

sosomewhereelse · 07/10/2026 22:37

You know full well that there’s a loud significant minority if not a majority of people who post on here who are ‘Gender Critical’ feminists. That is an echo chamber.

Show quote history

Are most sites an “echo chamber” because they tend towards a round earth view of the world and eschew flat earth perspectives?

Hedgehogforshort · 07/10/2026 22:42

sosomewhereelse · 07/10/2026 22:40

I have huge empathy for those women. I also have empathy for many transgender people.

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How lovely of you you are not a feminist

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/10/2026 22:43

sosomewhereelse · 07/10/2026 22:40

I have huge empathy for those women. I also have empathy for many transgender people.

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Sometimes it’s a zero sum game, because many “transgender people” claim they can only be happy if they can take away women’s rights to privacy and dignity. Maybe you can help to manage their expectations better, because they’re never going to be accepted as the opposite sex, and it really is the kindest thing you can do.

sosomewhereelse · 07/10/2026 22:44

Hedgehogforshort · 07/10/2026 22:42

How lovely of you you are not a feminist

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… I said I’m not not a ‘fully trans inclusionary feminist’ - specifically, quoting the phrasing in the title of this thread, and because I’m not. Didn’t say I’m not a feminist.

Again with the misreading

PremierInnShafter · 07/10/2026 22:45

sosomewhereelse · 07/10/2026 22:30

Pot , meet kettle

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Females who identify as pots or kettles - included in my feminism.

Males. Nope.

GreyskySexRealistsky · 07/10/2026 22:47

The echo chamber thing is so tedious by now, I can't even be bothered to counter it

Except to point out to @sosomewhereelse that here you are, having your say
As is lexible
As is totino
As is mouldemort
As are other non GC posters

Bring all your best arguments and reasoning

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/10/2026 22:49

The rise of trans rights activism and the acceptance of such complete and utter nonsense as valid and meaningful by supposedly decent and thoughtful people is the single weirdest thing I have lived through. And as JKR said, the most misogynistic phenomenon I have lived through.

sosomewhereelse · 07/10/2026 22:49

GreyskySexRealistsky · 07/10/2026 22:47

The echo chamber thing is so tedious by now, I can't even be bothered to counter it

Except to point out to @sosomewhereelse that here you are, having your say
As is lexible
As is totino
As is mouldemort
As are other non GC posters

Bring all your best arguments and reasoning

yes, they are also echo chambers

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/10/2026 22:50

sosomewhereelse · 07/10/2026 22:49

yes, they are also echo chambers

Show quote history

Those posters are echo chambers?

Choppingwoodcarryingwater · 07/10/2026 22:50

Imdunfer · 07/10/2026 22:34

This place is the least "echo chamber" you can find to discuss these issues. We always get a very strong trans activist response.

You are mistaking two polarised points of view that have no middle ground with "an echo chamber".

"Two echo chambers" would be a more realistic description.

The sticking point always being whether a man can become a woman.

After 21 pages I remain of the view that you cannot be a feminist while you support biological men in female only spaces.

Show quote history

Getting back to the point of this thread:

After 21 pages I remain of the view that you cannot be a feminist while you support biological men in female only spaces.

You don't seem to understand how this contradicts the fundamental principle feminism was predicated on which was equality in individual liberty that enables self determination. In other words individual liberty applies to all as in sexual equality not sexual superiority. Sex only comes into it if there is a disadvantage as a result of competing rights whereby rights are balanced according to the disadvantage that is circumstance dependant.

And this principle applies broadly as in all groups are equal but disadvantages in individual circumstances dictate how rights are apportioned.

Agreeing that trans women are women isn't a negation of rights balancing rather an acknowledgement that they are socially categorised as women. But social categorisation isn't an automatic entitlement to be treated the same as natal women…this is where rights balancing is relevant to adjudicating rights disputes.

GreyskySexRealistsky · 07/10/2026 22:51

GreyskySexRealistsky · 07/10/2026 22:47

The echo chamber thing is so tedious by now, I can't even be bothered to counter it

Except to point out to @sosomewhereelse that here you are, having your say
As is lexible
As is totino
As is mouldemort
As are other non GC posters

Bring all your best arguments and reasoning

Oh not to leave out Awkwardisfunny from my run-down of non GC posters in this GC echo chamber...

Edited to add: and Chopping! Of course. Quite a list.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/10/2026 22:52

GreyskySexRealistsky · 07/10/2026 22:51

Oh not to leave out Awkwardisfunny from my run-down of non GC posters in this GC echo chamber...

Edited to add: and Chopping! Of course. Quite a list.

Edited
Show quote history

Don’t forget old “Chopping”

Hedgehogforshort · 07/10/2026 22:52

sosomewhereelse · 07/10/2026 22:49

yes, they are also echo chambers

Show quote history

Echo chambers is a nebulous concept

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/10/2026 22:53

Hedgehogforshort · 07/10/2026 22:52

Echo chambers is a nebulous concept

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A veritable dogwhistle

sosomewhereelse · 07/10/2026 22:54

Hedgehogforshort · 07/10/2026 22:52

Echo chambers is a nebulous concept

Show quote history

I misread what was written and confused if for a different point I was going to make and sent it too soon.

Hedgehogforshort · 07/10/2026 22:54

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/10/2026 22:53

A veritable dogwhistle

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Thanks i forgot to mention that 😂

murasaki · 07/10/2026 22:55

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/10/2026 22:52

Don’t forget old “Chopping”

Show quote history

And BaileyHowseGretel

Original poster
Imdunfer · 07/10/2026 22:56

@totino a pregnant trans man is still a man

I sincerely hope that at some point in the future we will be able to look back at a time when anyone was able to write or read such a comment with a straight face and laugh ourselves witless.

OP posts:
GreyskySexRealistsky · 07/10/2026 22:56

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/10/2026 22:52

Don’t forget old “Chopping”

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😄 Chopping popped up just in time for my edit! What a stroke of luck

murasaki · 07/10/2026 22:56

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/10/2026 22:50

Those posters are echo chambers?

Show quote history

Yes, I was confused by that.

An echo chamber would ban them (see reddit for that sort of thing).

Here they are free to post and get their arses handed to them.

not an echo chamber.

GreyskySexRealistsky · 07/10/2026 22:57

murasaki · 07/10/2026 22:55

And BaileyHowseGretel

Show quote history

Not seen on this thread...strange 🤔

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