Can you be a fully trans inclusive feminist?

[Imdunfer]

Inspired from another thread where it was out of place so I brought it here.

Someone seemed to claim that it was possible to be both be a feminist and to be trans inclusive, where by trans inclusive they mean males in women's spaces and shortlists (the attitude to sport wasn't stated).

I don't believe that you can truly be both, do you?

I assume detransitioners don’t exist.

It seems we need a reminder :

No male can ever experience life as a woman. They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman.

Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is fucking misogynistic!

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that.

Not on them being female in any way.

Even when they have extreme body modifications, it is to be their own concept of what a female looks like to them. It is not what a female is.

How can it be?

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, (regardless of if that body produces those gametes) even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is - their concept of being female.

They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life). It really doesn't matter though. Their motivation is irrelevant to the outcome.

Which is that they will always be just a male who believes they are something they are objectively not.

How can the material reality be any different? This is why someone's gender is only based on someone's philosophical belief. And philosophical beliefs are fine for people to hold, but not one person in the UK has to comply with another's philosophical belief.

The logic cannot be any different than that I am afraid.

@totino How many ‘trans women’ have become pregnant?

What exactly do you imagine that^ meant.

You do get that’s not what most women on FWR think, right? There seems to be quite a lack of understanding in “trans inclusive feminist” thought about what GC feminists actually think.

And you would be happier if they only mistreated the ones who didn’t identify as men ?

Of course they do, and that's a very difficult thing to go through. However, if you give a treatment to 100 people, and 2 end up regretting it, but 98 are helped by it, it's not right to deny the other 98 people. Of course diagnostic should be improved. And the best way to learn more is actually to let more people who want to, transition. Especially socially transition, because the ones who really don't feel it will dip out.

Worth mentioning that what detransitioners feel is what trans people feel when they don't transition. Being stuck in a body that's wrong for you.

I have glasses so I can see better

I also have glasses but it doesn't change the fact that I am shortsighted, it doesn't make me into someone who has good vision. Has absolutely nothing to do with what sex I am.

Women ARE the sex that bear children. It doesn’t matter who professes belief in that or not. Everyone knows it to be true.

What is actually important is what you do with that information.

Do you, in the knowledge of this reality, protect her rights as the GC feminists believe?

Do you oppress her as the Taliban do?

Or dl you deny that distinctive aspect of her sex, thus making it impossible to protect her rights, as you propose?

But in your ideology aren’t “trans women” always women, never men? So if a man “transitions” has he always been a woman, and then if he detransitions was he a man all along even when he was always a woman?

@totino

When the aliens land, and they pick on you to explain the existence and purpose of human 'men' and 'women', what, exactly, are you going to tell them?

If you give treatment to 100 people and 98 were helped ? Helped relieve some mental issues whilst giving them physical problems? Because the transgender treatment for females is associated with weak bones, dementia and heart failure so not something to be done lightly

what do you think happened in the past when treatment wasn’t available ?

spoiler alert
the women got over it, and didn’t suffer form weak bones, dementia or heart failure - win win !
and the men wore dresses and called themselves transvestites

Worth mentioning that what detransitioners feel is what trans people feel when they don't transition. Being stuck in a body that's wrong for you.

What they feel is medically harmed. Its offensive to say that someone like Richie Herron who now has to live with no penis and a host of medical problems is stuck in a body that's wrong for him.

But they were always the sex they transitioned to according to you. So what are they once they detransition,

I think they are continently called a mistake or reasonable collateral damage

I love that some people reach for any old unconvincing guff just to avoid telling men that women and girls are female and have rights to privacy and dignity.

If both men and women can be men or women, and we group by self selection, what's the point?

Both groups will be the same, and we cant talk about sex as a class.

All that's happened is a group of people who want to conceal their sex have managed to stop anyond talking about sex. Sex hasnt disappeared, only our ability to talk about it clearly.

Rather than saying women should go for smear and menopause tests, we say people with cervix should. People with a cervix or uterus, not women. We start seeing ourselves as a series of disconnected parts, not our sex as a whole.

Feminism does have to step back and look at female as a class. Not all women give birth, but only women give birth. No women has made another women pregnant. Every women has common biology that men cannot share. And that cannot be ignored.

@Pingponghavoc “No women has made another women pregnant.”

Just like no man has made a ‘trans woman’ pregnant.

This is an absolutely key point.

Sex is material reality. I cannot be erased. The thing that TRAs and @totinowant to erase is our ability to talk about sex.

Whose interests does that serve? The women who have been fighting for their rights for millennia or the men who don't want to acknowledge these rights?

It doesn’t take a genius to figure that one out.,

Interesting because from my traditional Marxist background. Engles said exactly that. It is the root source of women's oppression, and the subsequent development of the patriarchy.

Women in the miners strike were heavily analysed, nay criticised for holding up the patriarchy by their defence of their own family unit and their children.

Terfdom holds all of the opinions be left or right they do not criticise women for being mothers, the struggles of liberty versus motherdom, we love all of it and all our disparate struggles.

it is truely back to the begining back to reality back to all that is woman.

Outside the (relatively recent) Western model of transgender, there are a number of societies that have traditionally accommodated men who wish to live in the manner of a woman.

They seem to have done this by having a category in its own right for these men, with its own name. Not by appropriating the name "woman".

It is that appropriation which has led to the coercive farce that everyone has to pretend there is no difference between women and feminine- identifying men, or none that matters. And has led to the absurdity of a "feminism" which includes a select subset of men, calls them women, and prioritises them over women when there is a conflict.

So a desire to colonise women's identity and space is supported by linguistic gerrymandering which aims to makes the colonisation sound reasonable and inevitable. It isn't. There are other approaches to gender nonconformity.

Yes, obviously.

Misogyny affects all women. Trans women experience sexual harassment, discrimination and the violent attention of cis men.

Cis men have no idea about any of that. They don't know how it feels to constantly be vigilant to attack. Trans women absolutely do.

Misogyny is the sole uniting female experience. Depressing but true.

So yes, I believe feminism should be trans-inclusive. Mine is.

But all men - transgender or not experience sexual harressment discrimination and violence at the hands of other men

so you say that feminism should centre men ?

really pathetic

A lot of ‘trans-inclusive’ feminists look ‘trans-prioritising’ tbh.

I would also think that many gay men know how it feels to constantly be vigilant to attack.