Can you be a fully trans inclusive feminist?

[Imdunfer]

Inspired from another thread where it was out of place so I brought it here.

Someone seemed to claim that it was possible to be both be a feminist and to be trans inclusive, where by trans inclusive they mean males in women's spaces and shortlists (the attitude to sport wasn't stated).

I don't believe that you can truly be both, do you?

They just are women or men. “Trans women” are never going to be anything other than men. And “trans men” are always women. This is the scientific and legal reality in this country. And even if you personally want to play along with this pretence, I do not. The majority of people agree with me on that, not you.

So they’re never going to be accepted by society as the sex they think they are. So it’s not really kind of you and your friends to tell them that they will be.

Utter poppycock.

You cannot tell people that they have to be a woman or man, it's genuinely does not work.

But it does work, doesn't it?

It's very obvious, statistically.

The men who say they're women behave, statistically, like men, in terms of most obvious sexed differences - sexuality and criminal behaviour.

And the women who say they're men behave, statistically, like women.

This is so statistically extreme that it's a pretty safe bet that any news report of a "woman" committing a violent crime is actually a man who says he's a woman.

Men who say they're women are rare, but women who commit violent crime are even more rare, so the odds favour the former. Because they say they're women, but behave like men.

Your "people say whether they're women or men" model is clearly inferior to the "are they actually women or men" model.

Progress is made by increasing predictive power with a better model, not decreasing it with a worse one.

Let’s have a bit of a look at what trans inclusive feminism/ females actually do.

no platform women in particular Germaine Greer

sign letters decrying women like Jo Pheonix

sitting on the women’s rights and equality committee attacking ECHR female representatives, centring trans women.

standing in court and saying i don't know what sex i am, defending a male

Female union leaders centring men.

Socially isolating females who do not accept their new constructions, like the poets the dancing company et al.

trustees in female only services, employing/accepting men as services users.

inclusion of men is no kind of feminism.

When I had my baby, I looked using my eyes, and saw the absence of a penis so knew I had a daughter.

I didn’t wait for her to decide!

Exactly this

Im not going to play pretend that womanhood is a costume or a feeling in a man’s head. Because that is deeply insulting to actual women

I have glasses so I can see better. I could take insulin if I was diabetic. I can take contraception not to get pregnant. I can get braces for my teeth. I can take hormones if I need them. (At least in theory because all of these things cost money, but they exist.) Nothing is 100%, there are a lot of things you can regulate or alleviate.

Transphobe! 😱

Love is a feeling. Yes. And ?

although in most ( all?) cases love is based on facts

the fact that he is a he. That he makes me laugh, that he shares my values, enjoys many of the same things I do, he pulls his weight and treats me well. Love fades when those things vanish. True Love is a response to a set of facts. And a chemical response to help us create babies and work better as a society

there is the initial chemical high that kids call love which I would say is lust - that is based on hormone responses to - facts - the smell of a person, the way they look, their position in the social strata , the symmetry of their face and body ( so attractiveness in general ) and the persons response to you - he gives you a smile and off your hormones go

so feelings are triggered by facts.

and you cabt have the feeling your body is wrong if you don’t have the fact that you have a body of a certain type

love often perisists in the face of adversity. When someone loves a person who is harming them we try to help them get over that feeling. Becuase the feeling is wrong and harmful

Your biological sex isn’t one of those things. Many biological things are not fixable. If you got rabies, no amount of identifying out of it would make it not fatal.

I have no idea what you think the relevance of any of this is, because humans cannot change sex.

@totinoI think you need to refresh your understanding of things that are possible and things that aren’t.

It’s all such empty, thoughtless, waffly, faux-inclusive nonsense that I can’t even. Women and girls matter. Not everything needs to revolve around men’s pronouncements.

I think what the women in Afghanistan experience is horrendous and has nothing at all to do with trans women. It's pretty clear to me that the Afghan authority has a very sex-based understanding of womanhood and I don't think it's good.

If you didn't take the contraception but decided to identify as a man instead, would that stop you getting pregnant?

So you think transmen should be treated differently in Afghanistan but not women ?

unbelievable

This is actually breathtakingly offensive

So much of trans rights activism is.

If I still have my uterus, then no of course not. To me it makes no difference, because to me a pregnant trans man is still a man. This is what I mean when I say that arguments between GCs and trans-inclusive feminists are mostly fruitless. Because there isn't really a misunderstanding, we largely do understand each other's points but we don't agree.

The scientific illiteracy on display here is so depressing.

Its like the Enlightenment never happened

It’s absolutely not the same. If a straight woman has a relationship with a man who later comes out as gay, that may raise some issues for her, but one of those issues isn’t her sexuality. She still had a relationship with a person of the opposite sex. A straight woman whose male partner comes out as trans is now being asked to redefine that straight relationship as a lesbian relationship. Retrospectively.

@totino “because to me a pregnant trans man is still a man.”

You don’t believe this for one moment!

Yea, the big problem with the Taliban is their inability to respect someone’s gender identity. Jesus.

But beyond saying that “it’s a feeling” you can’t really say what being a man or woman is

you seem to miss the obvious - if man and women isn’t biology based then none of us can say if we are man woman or the planet Saturn. We learn as children that men and women are the names given to the two sexes. If we say that isn’t the case, we can’t teach children that and so no one would feel they are anything because men and women wouldn’t exist

of course rape, sexual assault, etc etc would still happen but we wouldn’t be able to say “men rape women” because men and women ain’t anything factual it just how someone feels and at present that feeling is in response to the accepted sex based definitions but if you make it a feeling based definition it vanishes in a puff of imagination

No but they do think a woman's defining factor is the ability to bear children.