Can you be a fully trans inclusive feminist?

[Imdunfer]

Inspired from another thread where it was out of place so I brought it here.

Someone seemed to claim that it was possible to be both be a feminist and to be trans inclusive, where by trans inclusive they mean males in women's spaces and shortlists (the attitude to sport wasn't stated).

I don't believe that you can truly be both, do you?

Which is the same as saying women can only have single sex spaces/services when men allow them to.

Wow, this is top notch feminism 🙄

I am nearly 65 i walked away from feminism when it went right up its own arse. I was a reader/subscriber of the Spare Rib collective. In a simplistic analysis feminism only subsequently existed in academia. It ceased to have any relationship with working class women and their actual life experiences tethered to their biology and reproductive destiny, lower wages, etc.

then i popped into mumsnet FWR and bugger me the the name TERF cropped up, and the various activities of the TERFY peeps.

i thought yeah, i can call myself a feminist again.

Why? Because TERF talks about all biological women, it centres Lesbians, and it centres class and race, and religious oppression. It takes no prisoners.

Some TERFS have earned some fiscal privilege and use that to promote our cause.

I love being a TERF.

We are not a branch of feminism we are the trunk, connected to the roots of activism,

to stretch an analogy further the weak branch of feminism that is inclusive of men is about to drop off.

And i will be there to fucking burn it.

Oh I have no doubt that the original categories of woman/man were based around the reproductive system, it's an easily observable thing. But observations can be incomplete, they can be expanded on, especially in such a long time and with all the things we learn about human nature. I think a definition of woman/man that centers on the reproductive system is incomplete. Most people are cis, so the observation that most women will fall under XX/ova and most men will fall under XY/testes is still correct, it's not the complete picture. You think that the reproductive element should be the deciding factor and I don't. I've written elsewhere about how I think it works psychologically.

This whole notion of ‘being in the wrong body’ is ludicrous!

Amazing post

How do you think we should decide who is a woman and who is a man if not based on sex?

This is complete fanciful nonsense. The reason “trans inclusive feminism” isn’t actually a thing is that you are literally centring men over women and girls. That is not feminism. It is anti feminism.

I highly doubt you could make any rational argument as to how a “trans woman” has anything in common with a woman that isn’t also shared with other men, but I’m all ears.

On this point: yes. we do. Not because women are incapable of identifying patriarchy, obviously, but because if there is ever going to be any meaningful change, men have to recognise it too.

Misogyny and patriarchal norms are upheld by men, and the reality is that men are often far more likely to listen to other men about this than they are to listen to women telling them about their own experiences. So we absolutely need men who are willing to recognise the patriarchal underpinnings of women's subjugation, and to challenge other men on them. And that includes recognising the ways that patriarchy and misogyny harm men too. Things like toxic masculinity and the expectation that men shouldn't show vulnerability aren't somehow separate from misogyny. They are part of the same system, and recognising that gives men a reason to want to challenge it for their own sake as well as women's.
If we want to reduce things like violence against women, discrimination and sexual harassment, it isn't enough for women to understand the problem. Men have to understand it too, and men need to be challenging other men, so it's essential that they identify patriarchy

I am interested in this too

@totino if a “trans woman” is “never” a man, does that mean that if Donald Trump announced he was a woman tomorrow, he’s always been one? Would you accept his identity? Or would you gatekeep?

because the claims to be women of many of the men you are caping for are easily just as ludicrous as that. I suspect you do gatekeep, don’t you?

So what other things help define whether someone is male or female?

If you have to put trans in front of anything then you aren’t what you say you are. Isn’t that what it boils down to. If you were a woman you’d just be a woman? Not a trans woman. Why are grown adults debating this?

Am I a trans millionaire? My bank says no, but my
expensive clothes, tastes, restaurants and holiday
resorts say otherwise. Who is responsible for this discrimination?

That’s before I get onto age. 44 you say? I don’t feel it…

The game is up. If it isn't seek help.

Does the same right apply to Rachel Dolezal? If not, why not?

Me too. Also when you come up with the definition could you send it on to Afghanistan - I'm sure it will make a huge difference to the women of that country.

Yes, I'm sure that's all lovely.

What do we do with the women who are quite certain of their sex and need single sex spaces for access and equality?

Thank you for replying.
I only mentioned wombs because you mentioned wombs.

The fact of being male or female is not just in our reproductive systems, is it?
Our biological sex is encoded in every cell in our body - which, usefully. makes a quick cheek swab just as effective as the often-mentioned 'genital inspections'.

Apart from rare DSDs, the XX/XY things is a straightforward, provable, workable, pretty much universal way to define 'man' and 'women', and I don't see the point in pursuing less convincing alternatives. Except of course in angels-on-head-of-pins-type speculation, which is fair enough, but not very practical.

These discussions: “well it’s interesting that you have your established facts, risk profiling and logic and lived experience of your biological sex, but I think my incoherent, stereotype-based quasi-religious belief where I can’t quite explain how men are in any way like women but they totally are, and so you should give up your safety, privacy and dignity for this ideological concept” - so frustrating

@totino will give us the answer

And where does it leave their female former partners. If they believed themselves to be straight, do they now have to accept they are bisexual?

this should be pinned up top as it sums up everything better than anything I’ve ever read!

I don't think the reproductive system should be the deciding factor. It will be true for most people, but not all.

I believe in most cases it's quite direct. Being addressed as a boy and becoming alienated because that's not what you are. Being referred to as a daughter and thinking that's not right. A consistent experience of alienation that can be alleviated by transition.

Thank you! Years of hard experience of being tired of explaining reality.

So just thinking you don’t like being the sex you are, then?

Indeed.

We keep them out because they are men and yes its legal sex discrimination.
All men are a physical threat even if they've chopped their penis off because he can still strangle you to death with 1 hand or beat you to death.
Also we keep men out because we want privacy and dignity aswell as safety.
And that is why we keep winning.