Can you be a fully trans inclusive feminist?

[Imdunfer]

Inspired from another thread where it was out of place so I brought it here.

Someone seemed to claim that it was possible to be both be a feminist and to be trans inclusive, where by trans inclusive they mean males in women's spaces and shortlists (the attitude to sport wasn't stated).

I don't believe that you can truly be both, do you?

@raisinglittlepeople12 “The threat to women has always been men, not trans women.”

Trans women are men, so they are definitely a threat to women.

In what sense aren’t transwomen men?

Huh?
Saying it requires feminism does not = it’s women who need to do the advocacy

It’s entirely my business that naive, thoughtless women are telling entitled men that women will be ok with them in our spaces, hope that helps.

Can men stop being a threat by identifying as women?

Is the assumption that something in the process of identifying stops any threat

Or that no man who is a threat would identify as a woman?

Do people really only give this five seconds’ thought? What is a “trans woman”, how are they like a woman and how are they different to a man, exactly?

Nice soundbite, except (1) it is hurting someone else and (2) TW are men, it's the main prerequisite for being one

So who would be doing the advocacy then? If it’s men, why would they need feminism? They’re big boys ,they can do it themselves

Summary of arguments for the existence of “trans inclusive feminism” so far:

Some dubious postmodernist academics say it’s a thing

trans women are women and because of that they’re not any threat to women at all, that’s men

”gender” is the root of women’s oppression, not “biosex”

some people on Facebook don’t like mumsnet

you’re bigots, so there

Shon Faye says so too

the patriarchy is the root of oppression and it has nothing to do with sex

Why would men who say they are women, or believe they should be women, be safer than other men? Based on crime statistics of prisoners, trans women are actually a bit less safe when it comes to sexual assaults.

Because they need feminism/ feminist ideology to recognise that their issues are intertwined with misogyny and caused by and large, patriarchy

The threat to women has always been men not transwomen

thats false

first because to be a transwoman you have to be a man - so the statement reads “
the threat to women has always been men not men
“ which is clearly nonsense

second the prison data suggests that transwomen may even be more of a threat to women than none transgender men.

What’s the difference between a man and a ‘transwoman’?

And dismantling women’s sex based rights IS hurting them. Are people incapable of thinking through basic consequences?

I totally agree that men are impacted by patriarchy too.

However it’s not feminism's job to address this

Was away from my desk, but I'll try to reply. I don't think trans woman are ever men. I don't think in general that there is "male" brain and "female" brain, but I think the brain knows whether you're a man or woman. It's been explained to me comparable to phantom pain, when you feel a limb that's missing. The brain scans for a body that should be a certain way but it's not, which is why gender dysphoria exists, and why people transition. I think that's completely authentic and I think it's probably always been around, like how we used to call depression "melancholia" and seizures "having visions", things like that.

I don't think all trans women are meek little lambs because women aren't all meek little lambs. But I don't believe in "trans women are a danger because males are a danger" because I don't believe men are born inherently more sexual, more violent, that they "can't help themselves". Men commit the most crimes, the most violence because they can, because they are the dominant group in society. There's a lot of toxicity around what "being a real man" is, and a lot of bonding rituals around harming and dominating women. A trans woman is neither welcome to this bonding nor does she want it, since she does not consider the men her peers. "Trans women" were once considered effeminate men and "real" men beat them. As they still do.

This is also why I don't think discussion between GCs and trans-inclusive feminists are very productive. They can be interesting, but ultimately we have all heard each other's arguments and we don't agree.

The brain knows whether you are a man or a woman?

What does this even mean?

How does the brain ‘know’ something in total opposition to the reproductive system?

The threat to women has always been men, not trans women

Another mindless mantra passing from screen to mouth without making it through the brain on the way. Chanted with the aim of forcing non consenting women to have to undress and/or submit to intimate touch from men to gratify the man's inner self.

There's no point even bothering to unpack it, any more than there is debating 'pretty polly'.

Indeed. TW claim to be feminists, but I just don't see what use feminism is to them. Nothing in your post applies to them.

Sure, they might, if they pass, suffer from perceptive discrimination, but I think we've already got that covered, along with discrimination as to gender reassignment.

And they are at risk from other men, because all men are: men kill twice as many men as women.

But heterosexual TW are not at risk from their wives, and if attacked by another man have some chance of fighting him off (and don't risk pregnancy). What does this have to do with women?

I actually don't object to men being "socially women" (because what's the rationale for banning it?). I draw the line at them pretending to actually be women, for all the many reasons rehearsed supra.

I can't even

For the second time this evening

A rape victim in need should never be left hanging so yes, obviously. If he wants to go. Perhaps he would prefer a service for men, but there are very few, so yes. But I also think the same of a trans woman. If there is a situation where another survivor absolutely cannot be in the same space as a trans woman she also should be accommodated. More funding for rape crisis services would be helpful, but everyone knows that's not coming.

There is no male or female brain or body but you just know ?

since the male and female brains and bodyies don’t exist you can’t know because there is nothing to know?

except I suspect you know who you fancy

The idea that Bruce Jenner, Frank Maloney and Eddie Izzard were never men is frankly laughable. Sorry.

Absolutely no issues with men presenting any way they choose, mentally feeling any way they feel, having complex spiritual beliefs about souls, interesting alternative science interests and beliefs, and all the rest of it. Have a lovely time.

Just tolerate the existence of single sex spaces for women that choose and need them, and stop trying to get in there.

End of issue.

Are you saying that a woman who doesn't want a man in her rape therapy group should go elsewhere rather than the man

Phantom limb pain occurs after the amputation of a limb - it's the brain looking for something that was previously there.

A brain can't recognise being in the wrong body as its never been in an opposite sex body