Can you be a fully trans inclusive feminist?

[Imdunfer]

Inspired from another thread where it was out of place so I brought it here.

Someone seemed to claim that it was possible to be both be a feminist and to be trans inclusive, where by trans inclusive they mean males in women's spaces and shortlists (the attitude to sport wasn't stated).

I don't believe that you can truly be both, do you?

I'm not sure this board is the place for your lame satirical attempts at woke bekind nonsense. Here we have the real thing in abundance. No one's amused.
Expect to be deleted in 3... 2...

You said feminism needs to focus on men. Feminism is for women.

As I said upthread, there are men addressing the issues they face. There are organisations - Men's Sheds, Andy's Man Club, Blokes Walk and Talk. There are groups near me aimed at giving boys positive role models.

The male organisers of these things are doing just fine and don't need women to take the lead.

Edit now I've seen your edit: I think it's a bit patronising to assume men can't do it themselves. I know they need to do a lot more of it, but it's a positive start.

Women shouldn't read books because they might find out that the next village along doesn't marry off girls to middle-aged men at puberty.

Women shouldn't ride bikes because they might cycle to the next village, cuckold you, and land you with another man's child.

Women shouldn't rule the world because they might prioritise women and children and expect men to take responsibility instead of the most powerful men having the pick of the women.

It's all about competing for breeding opportunities and paternity guarding, whether consciously or not.

It's reproductive biology, all day long.

Feminism isnt just theory. Its a doing word - women working to achieve better outcomes for women.

If men are included, it stops being that. At best its men helping to organising, or worse men deciding on the priorities, how they are achieved. Feminism is in danger of being by men, for men.

How many men can be included in Feminism before it loses focus of 'for women by women'? Can a group of trans identifying men be seen as a feminist group?

Please, read back my posts you have misread. I haven’t once said feminism needs to focus on men?
I responded to a post that made a blanket statement that things pertaining to men have nothing to do with feminism, which is incorrect. I do not think that should be the main feminist focus , especially for women feminists to address, but they can be acknowledged as issues for feminism and that not take away from it predominantly being a women’s rights movement.

not assuming men can’t do it by themselves . Im saying that they need feminism to do it. Feminism is a school of thought that recognises the patriarchy. The positive male organisations your citing are no doubt promoting ideas like it’s okay for men to show emotions/ cry etc which is only necessary because patriarchy has constructed otherwise. Needing feminism and needing women is not the same thing, there are male feminists.

Dismantling the patriarchy requires a wholistic approach, and yes , that includes men and boys too.

Vegans who try their best not to eat ANY animal-derived products and vegans who cheerfully tuck into a cheeseburger or roast chicken now and again are just different types of vegan!

It's really mean and discriminatory to call these meat-and-dairy guzzling vegans 'not real vegans'.

This is how ridiculous these people sound.

I reject the term TERF because

1. I'm not trans-exclusionary; like many feminists I include trans men in feminism because they face the same oppression on the basis of their sex as all other women.
2. I don't think the idea that women are actual people (not an idea, costume, feeling or way to have sex) is all that radical, actually.

MERF would be more accurate.
MEF would be even more accurate.
And just F would describe everything perfectly.

Also, feminism isn't "group of people who can identify patriarchy and want to get rid of it"

It's "group of people who prioritise the rights of women and girls, everywhere"

That's it.

Is it half term again?

Also some TIMs have a surgically inverted penis that they like to pretend is a vagina. These men will insist on using "vagina" spaces.

Very clearly not what I was saying??

Okay, I see that xye said Why do men need feminism to focus on men?
and you said To identify patriarchy and its impact on these things
so the sentence flow reads as if you're saying it should focus on men in order to identify patriarchy
I accept that's not what you meant

Gender has EVERYTHING to do with feminism, what are you on about?
If the patriarchy hadn't created gendered roles, biases and stereotypes in the first place, there'd be no need for feminism. Women weren't kept out of work, politics and money because of their chromosomes, they were kept out because of what society decided women were for. That's gender
Very clearly, that is what you said—society, not chromosomes.

Edited to say, if it weren’t for the chromosomes, there would be no biological differences and no women to force into gender roles.

That is how I read it too.

I think any group of people can be a feminist group, provided nothing they fight for or work towards diminishes the rights or equality of women.

I don't see why men can't be feminists working alongside women to improve women's rights and equality.

but you also misread my innitail comment that said men should be included and conflated that with me saying men should be the focus

Men are always the focus!! They can’t seem to leave women alone!

Precisely, feminism needs to be about women and girls. Men can call their gender analytical movement something else.

This. Do you see this point now @totino?

No.

So where are the men’s groups advocating for Women’s mental health? Or is it just women that are supposed to advocate for men?

Gender only requires sociological associations that trans women possess.

So apparently I, a natal woman, am not wholly a woman because I never played with dolls never wore makeup, even though I suffered and fought all the restrictions of education, work and sexual harassment that women do.

Studied maths and went into computing - so am I not womanly? Can’t stand browsing for clothes - am I not womanly?

The logic that trans identifying men are somehow sociologically women because they do some things women are expected to do implies that women like me aren’t women in all senses. We absolutely are, we are fighting society’s gendered expectations in order to open up more prospects for women.

Trans identifying men, on the other hand, are not women. They are just reinforcing those gender stereotypes.

Yes. People have such a hard time minding their own business, but ultimately for me it’s a case of “do what you want as long as it’s legal and not hurting anyone else. The threat to women has always been men, not trans women.

@Naunet

Sounds like a set of privilaged, luxury beliefs to me.

Absolutely, I couldn't have put it better myself.

The refusal to acknowledge the physical and social reality of the female half of the planet, to divorce that from womanhood, and state that, no actually, womanhood is contained in the minds of male people, the historical oppressor class of female people, in the form of some metaphysical concept known as a "gender identity" and you want to call that feminism?😳Maybe it's because my family are from a global South nation, so-called feminists who champion this ideology are extremely amusing and just silly to me.

I mean, no "transwoman" has ever:

had to face female genital mutilation, had to face the horrors being cut as a child, sometimes being sewn together, only to be "opened" up by his future husband on his wedding night, because his genitalia and sexuality are inherently dirty things that must be controlled

been killed as a newborn for the sin of being the wrong sex, the female sex that is considered a burden

been voiceless and veiled and treated lower than dogshit in Afghanistan

faced the sack for being married or having kids

has been denied the right to education, while his brothers are free to go to school

been ignored and overlooked for being female, but listened to when his husband is around

been denied the vote because he was a woman

been married off and sold like cattle to a man three times his age because girls are just another mouth to feed

experienced period poverty or the shame of being relegated to a menstrual hut

had his reproductive rights and literally every aspect of his material being policed, because that's what society does to women

...the list goes on.

But yeah, TWAW right? Spinny skirts away!

But “transwomen” are men. The only criteria to be. TW is to be a man first. So yes, the threat to women has always been men, even those claiming to be women. You are right.

The male only group would set their agenda and work towards their goals.

But how is that feminism? When is a male only group who decide what women need and how it is to be achieved, feminism and when it is the patriarchy?

'Trans inclusion' has been designed by such groups, hasnt it?