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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie: Employment Tribunal, associated legal claims, and related matters - thread #67

1000 replies

nauticant · 01/10/2026 18:23

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims were of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claimed to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and after a prolonged process judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025. That judgment is being appealed and an appeal hearing is expected to take place in 2027.

A second Employment Tribunal, Sandie Peggie vs Royal College of Nursing, has just been heard. The hearing started on Wednesday 23 September 2026 and ended on Thursday 1 October 2026. It is possible that a decision will be handed down before Christmas of this year.

Additional legal claims have been raised. Sandie Peggie is taking action against three senior managers who were witnesses in the first Employment Tribunal - Dr Kate Searle, Dr Maggie Currer and Esther Davidson, against Carol Potter, the chief executive of NHS Fife, for victimisation, against NHS Fife for discrimination, and against its director of people and culture David Miller for harassment. In addition, Sandie Peggie is being investigated by the Nursing and Midwifery Council over fitness to practice.

The past proceedings were live tweeted by www.x.com/tribunaltweets. Tribunal Tweets are likely to be providing coverage in future proceedings. There's additional information on Tribunal Tweets' substack: www.tribunaltweets.substack.com/.

Links to previous threads #1 to #60 can be found in this thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 61: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5472628-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-61 8 January 2026 to 3 August 2026

Thread 62: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5562302-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-62 3 August 2026 to 24 September 2026

Thread 63: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5581909-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-63 24 September 2026 to 27 September 2026

Thread 64: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5583133-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-64 27 September 2026 to 29 September 2026

Thread 65: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5583663-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-65 29 September 2026 to 30 September 2026

Thread 66: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5584074-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-66 30 September 2026 to 1 October 2026

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prh47bridge · 05/10/2026 16:24

Lacksie · 05/10/2026 15:37

Swift was clear that a facility labelled "women" that allowed use by trans identifying men was mis-labelled - as far as the law is concerned

eh? This is a completely bollocks claim. The law does not say that a facility is “mislabelled” because trans women are permitted to use it, nor does it prescribe what such a facility must be called. It is to law as voodoo is to science

From your favourite paragraph

the lavatory would be mixed-sex, but for the purposes of the Claimants’ submission in this case it would still be labelled “women”

So we have a lavatory that is actually mixed-sex as far as the law is concerned but is labelled women. It is therefore clearly mis-labelled.

MyAmpleSheep · 05/10/2026 16:26

Lacksie · 05/10/2026 16:19

I repeatedly have, customer toilets in pubs - that follows paragraph 61's hypothetical.

Other potential examples:

  • Customer toilets in restaurants, cafés, cinemas, theatres and museums.
  • Separate men’s and women’s exercise or yoga classes that include trans participants.
  • Separate recreational swimming sessions, with private changing available.
  • Men’s and women’s counselling or wellbeing groups.
  • Men’s and women’s craft, reading or other hobby groups.
  • Customer toilets in restaurants, cafés, cinemas, theatres and museums.

We claim that allowing men and women into each other's toilets is discrimination against women because women are more adversely affected by this than men.

  • Separate men’s and women’s exercise or yoga classes that include trans participants.

Excluding a non-trans identifying man from such a service is discrimination on the same basis as al-Hijrah. exercising alongside other men is de facto different to exercising alongside a group of women (which might include his wife or girlfriend with whom he would like to exercise but from doing so is unlawfully prevented). It's not an equivalent service. Likewise it also prevents women from exercising alongside their husbands or partners in the men's exercise class. It would be legal to do this discrimination strictly on sex lines because it would qualify for a schedule 3 exemption. But since it's not segregated strictly on sex lines it doesn't, and isn't.

  • Separate recreational swimming sessions, with private changing available.

The same argument applies.

  • Men’s and women’s counselling or wellbeing groups.

The same argument applies - attending these groups alongside a group of men-identifiers is not and cannot be the same service as attending them alongside a group of women-identifiers. Just like in al-Hijrah, using the playground only with other girls denied the girls the right to associate with boys, in a way that discrminated against them (since boys were allowed to associate with boys), and girls mutatis mutandis.

  • Men’s and women’s craft, reading or other hobby groups.

The same argument applies once again. However you are now veering away from services and into associations. Nobody is arguing that trans-inclusive associations are unlawful. The issue for the WI and the GG is the interpretation of their esblishing charters.

The "an equivalent service for men-identifiers is offered" argument works for toilets because the positive presence of other women (or other men) cannot possibly be described as an important part of the service offering. (Except, I note in passing, for trans-identifying men. But that's another issue.) It doesnt' work for any other service that I can think of; the company only of other men or women is an important fact that differentiates the men's from the women's service. Or else they can be offered in a unisex fashion.

sanluca · 05/10/2026 16:30

Lacksie · 05/10/2026 16:19

I repeatedly have, customer toilets in pubs - that follows paragraph 61's hypothetical.

Other potential examples:

  • Customer toilets in restaurants, cafés, cinemas, theatres and museums.
  • Separate men’s and women’s exercise or yoga classes that include trans participants.
  • Separate recreational swimming sessions, with private changing available.
  • Men’s and women’s counselling or wellbeing groups.
  • Men’s and women’s craft, reading or other hobby groups.

What I never understand is when somebody goes to all that trouble of offering separate services or facilities based on sex, it means that in that service or facility someone's sex is of importance. Why would anyone then assume that in the case of trans people all of a sudden them being the opposite sex to the people using the facility or service, is of no matter? Either it is important or it isn't. It cannot be based on what a person who wants to use a service or facility says to make them qualify for something they don't.

Lacksie · 05/10/2026 16:36

prh47bridge · 05/10/2026 16:24

From your favourite paragraph

the lavatory would be mixed-sex, but for the purposes of the Claimants’ submission in this case it would still be labelled “women”

So we have a lavatory that is actually mixed-sex as far as the law is concerned but is labelled women. It is therefore clearly mis-labelled.

Edited

Absolute rubbish. It’s not “mislabelled”. The Supreme Court interpreted what “woman” means for the purposes of the Equality Act. It did not prescribe what the word means more generally (they were VERY clear about that), how it must be used or how facilities must be labelled.

Saying that a facility admitting women and trans women is “mixed-sex” for Equality Act purposes means that for the purposes of understanding legal rules, it does not qualify as "single-sex" provision, as that language is used in the EA.

That is completely different from saying the facility is “mislabelled”.

MyAmpleSheep · 05/10/2026 16:36

I'm going to put the same point another way: a women's service that excludes men is not in any way equal to or equivalent to a men's service that excludes women: because one service excludes men, and the other service excludes, duh, women.

Lacksie · 05/10/2026 16:39

MyAmpleSheep · 05/10/2026 16:26

  • Customer toilets in restaurants, cafés, cinemas, theatres and museums.

We claim that allowing men and women into each other's toilets is discrimination against women because women are more adversely affected by this than men.

  • Separate men’s and women’s exercise or yoga classes that include trans participants.

Excluding a non-trans identifying man from such a service is discrimination on the same basis as al-Hijrah. exercising alongside other men is de facto different to exercising alongside a group of women (which might include his wife or girlfriend with whom he would like to exercise but from doing so is unlawfully prevented). It's not an equivalent service. Likewise it also prevents women from exercising alongside their husbands or partners in the men's exercise class. It would be legal to do this discrimination strictly on sex lines because it would qualify for a schedule 3 exemption. But since it's not segregated strictly on sex lines it doesn't, and isn't.

  • Separate recreational swimming sessions, with private changing available.

The same argument applies.

  • Men’s and women’s counselling or wellbeing groups.

The same argument applies - attending these groups alongside a group of men-identifiers is not and cannot be the same service as attending them alongside a group of women-identifiers. Just like in al-Hijrah, using the playground only with other girls denied the girls the right to associate with boys, in a way that discrminated against them (since boys were allowed to associate with boys), and girls mutatis mutandis.

  • Men’s and women’s craft, reading or other hobby groups.

The same argument applies once again. However you are now veering away from services and into associations. Nobody is arguing that trans-inclusive associations are unlawful. The issue for the WI and the GG is the interpretation of their esblishing charters.

The "an equivalent service for men-identifiers is offered" argument works for toilets because the positive presence of other women (or other men) cannot possibly be described as an important part of the service offering. (Except, I note in passing, for trans-identifying men. But that's another issue.) It doesnt' work for any other service that I can think of; the company only of other men or women is an important fact that differentiates the men's from the women's service. Or else they can be offered in a unisex fashion.

Edited

Well done—you’ve supplied your arguments against each example. Whether a court would accept those arguments is another question entirely. Your confidence in your interpretation does not turn it into a ruling/ law, and I’m not going to debate every example with you.

MyAmpleSheep · 05/10/2026 16:40

Lacksie · 05/10/2026 16:39

Well done—you’ve supplied your arguments against each example. Whether a court would accept those arguments is another question entirely. Your confidence in your interpretation does not turn it into a ruling/ law, and I’m not going to debate every example with you.

I’m not going to debate every example with you.

OK, I'll accept having the last word on those. Do you have any others examples you want to put forward?

Taztoy · 05/10/2026 16:43

@Lacksie what about the example I’ve asked you numerous times?

You know, the one where I’ve requested a female HCP to furtle in my fanny, and be told yes it is a woman that will be attending to me.

Should a trans woman be allowed to turn up and have a rummage or not?

nicepotoftea · 05/10/2026 16:55

MyAmpleSheep · 05/10/2026 16:26

  • Customer toilets in restaurants, cafés, cinemas, theatres and museums.

We claim that allowing men and women into each other's toilets is discrimination against women because women are more adversely affected by this than men.

  • Separate men’s and women’s exercise or yoga classes that include trans participants.

Excluding a non-trans identifying man from such a service is discrimination on the same basis as al-Hijrah. exercising alongside other men is de facto different to exercising alongside a group of women (which might include his wife or girlfriend with whom he would like to exercise but from doing so is unlawfully prevented). It's not an equivalent service. Likewise it also prevents women from exercising alongside their husbands or partners in the men's exercise class. It would be legal to do this discrimination strictly on sex lines because it would qualify for a schedule 3 exemption. But since it's not segregated strictly on sex lines it doesn't, and isn't.

  • Separate recreational swimming sessions, with private changing available.

The same argument applies.

  • Men’s and women’s counselling or wellbeing groups.

The same argument applies - attending these groups alongside a group of men-identifiers is not and cannot be the same service as attending them alongside a group of women-identifiers. Just like in al-Hijrah, using the playground only with other girls denied the girls the right to associate with boys, in a way that discrminated against them (since boys were allowed to associate with boys), and girls mutatis mutandis.

  • Men’s and women’s craft, reading or other hobby groups.

The same argument applies once again. However you are now veering away from services and into associations. Nobody is arguing that trans-inclusive associations are unlawful. The issue for the WI and the GG is the interpretation of their esblishing charters.

The "an equivalent service for men-identifiers is offered" argument works for toilets because the positive presence of other women (or other men) cannot possibly be described as an important part of the service offering. (Except, I note in passing, for trans-identifying men. But that's another issue.) It doesnt' work for any other service that I can think of; the company only of other men or women is an important fact that differentiates the men's from the women's service. Or else they can be offered in a unisex fashion.

Edited

I find this so confusing.

I can't think of a situation where a service provider would segregate by sex outside the Schedule 3 exceptions and it wouldn't, at best, be very inconvenient. If the schedule 3 exceptions don't apply, why are we bothering?

But then apparently in the proposed scenarios we aren't segregating by sex, and anyone can use either facility, so what is the point?

MyAmpleSheep · 05/10/2026 16:57

nicepotoftea · 05/10/2026 16:55

I find this so confusing.

I can't think of a situation where a service provider would segregate by sex outside the Schedule 3 exceptions and it wouldn't, at best, be very inconvenient. If the schedule 3 exceptions don't apply, why are we bothering?

But then apparently in the proposed scenarios we aren't segregating by sex, and anyone can use either facility, so what is the point?

Just remember that "equally inconvenient for both women and men" doesn't mean it's not individually disadvantageous to both groups.

MoistVonL · 05/10/2026 16:58

The WI leadership were absolutely desperate to continue to accept trans identifying men as members. They had legal advice that they just couldn't.

If it was the slam dunk Lacksie seems to think, marketing things as for women but including trans identifying men, the WI would still accept transwomen as members.

nicepotoftea · 05/10/2026 17:01

MyAmpleSheep · 05/10/2026 16:57

Just remember that "equally inconvenient for both women and men" doesn't mean it's not individually disadvantageous to both groups.

So both groups could argue discriminatory treatment?

MyAmpleSheep · 05/10/2026 17:05

nicepotoftea · 05/10/2026 17:01

So both groups could argue discriminatory treatment?

Yes, I think so. On the same basis as al-Hijrah.

There are two precedents that come to mind. Al-Hijrah where equal-and-opposite treatment was found to be unlawfully detrimental (to both boys and girls) and Smith vs Safeway, where equal treatment (requiring 'conventional' dress codes of both men and women, different in each case but in each case conventional for that sex) was lawful.

@prh47bridge may want to comment and tell me I've got my law wrong, but that's my understanding.

Kirschcherries · 05/10/2026 17:09

Lacksie · 05/10/2026 16:36

Absolute rubbish. It’s not “mislabelled”. The Supreme Court interpreted what “woman” means for the purposes of the Equality Act. It did not prescribe what the word means more generally (they were VERY clear about that), how it must be used or how facilities must be labelled.

Saying that a facility admitting women and trans women is “mixed-sex” for Equality Act purposes means that for the purposes of understanding legal rules, it does not qualify as "single-sex" provision, as that language is used in the EA.

That is completely different from saying the facility is “mislabelled”.

Edited

How does anyone distinguish between a toilet labelled “women’s” that is for biological women only because it is a permissible SSS and a toilet labelled “women’s” that is a mixed sex space including transwomen but excluding men?”

If it was labelled “women’s and transwomen” it would be transparent, but you don’t want that.

prh47bridge · 05/10/2026 17:29

Lacksie · 05/10/2026 16:36

Absolute rubbish. It’s not “mislabelled”. The Supreme Court interpreted what “woman” means for the purposes of the Equality Act. It did not prescribe what the word means more generally (they were VERY clear about that), how it must be used or how facilities must be labelled.

Saying that a facility admitting women and trans women is “mixed-sex” for Equality Act purposes means that for the purposes of understanding legal rules, it does not qualify as "single-sex" provision, as that language is used in the EA.

That is completely different from saying the facility is “mislabelled”.

Edited

The Equality Act has real world consequences and interacts with other legislation and regulations.

If a facility such as a changing room or toilet allows trans identifying men to enter as well as women, it is mixed sex. That is the law.

If you stick a label on that facility saying "women", you are in breach of the regulations regarding signage for such facilities. You are also giving women a reasonable expectation, given the EA, that it is for biological women only. But it is not. It is mixed sex. You have therefore opened yourself up to women taking action against you for harassment and possibly also sex discrimination.

If you are writing a book, you can use the word "women" to mean whatever you want it to mean. But if you are putting a label on facilities such as changing rooms or toilets, that label needs to match the legal designation of those facilities.

MarieDeGournay · 05/10/2026 17:41

The Equality Act has real world consequences and interacts with other legislation and regulations.

'Laws, like houses, lean on one another' - Edmund Burke
Smile

Helleofabore · 05/10/2026 17:42

oldtiredcyclist · 05/10/2026 10:17

Firstly, the word "changer" is used to describe changing rooms in Canada, Australia and New Zealand. These countries have been totally captured by gender ideology.
Dr Upton is a heterosexual male, who has no respect for women or their rights. Why did he decide to use women's changing rooms?
There are only three answers - he is a misogynist who hates women, he wants to have power and control over women, he is a pervert who is taking advantage of the NHS rules on transgender people in the workplace.

I have never heard the term used in Australia but maybe it could be a southern state slang term.

KeepupKardigans · 05/10/2026 17:42

4 years ago I had an elective major op. I received an epidural by a female doctor. A male doctor (opposite side) informed me I needed catheterising but it was my right to ask for same sex care. Given I was safely surrounded by a medical surgical team I gave permission, he thanked me. What I didn’t share with them was one of the reasons I gave permission was I thought he would benefit from the practice of a recognised female procedure and as anaesthetised I felt and could see nothing. However for smears and intimate exams I would ask for female at GP’s. I did have a choice and exercised it, the same choice I and all women should expect for medical procedures, sss, toilets, changing rooms etc.

Lacksie · 05/10/2026 17:42

prh47bridge · 05/10/2026 17:29

The Equality Act has real world consequences and interacts with other legislation and regulations.

If a facility such as a changing room or toilet allows trans identifying men to enter as well as women, it is mixed sex. That is the law.

If you stick a label on that facility saying "women", you are in breach of the regulations regarding signage for such facilities. You are also giving women a reasonable expectation, given the EA, that it is for biological women only. But it is not. It is mixed sex. You have therefore opened yourself up to women taking action against you for harassment and possibly also sex discrimination.

If you are writing a book, you can use the word "women" to mean whatever you want it to mean. But if you are putting a label on facilities such as changing rooms or toilets, that label needs to match the legal designation of those facilities.

If you stick a label on that facility saying "women", you are in breach of the regulations regarding signage for such facilities

Which regulation, specifically, makes that label unlawful? Please identify the provision rather than simply assert that one exists.

You are treating the Equality Act’s classification of a facility as though it automatically dictates the wording on its door. That does not follow. Swift expressly considered a trans-inclusive facility labelled “women” in paragraph 61 and contemplated it could be lawful depending on the circumstances.

If you claim that the label itself breaches a separate signage regulation, identify that regulation and explain how it applies.

MarieDeGournay · 05/10/2026 17:53

Lacksie v. prh47bridge🙃

MyAmpleSheep · 05/10/2026 17:55

Lacksie · 05/10/2026 17:42

If you stick a label on that facility saying "women", you are in breach of the regulations regarding signage for such facilities

Which regulation, specifically, makes that label unlawful? Please identify the provision rather than simply assert that one exists.

You are treating the Equality Act’s classification of a facility as though it automatically dictates the wording on its door. That does not follow. Swift expressly considered a trans-inclusive facility labelled “women” in paragraph 61 and contemplated it could be lawful depending on the circumstances.

If you claim that the label itself breaches a separate signage regulation, identify that regulation and explain how it applies.

Edited

For anything requiring building approval since 2024, Approved document T requires single sex toilets with approved signage. There's not a lot of wiggle room there to have "inclusive" toilet signs.

GriseldaandMike · 05/10/2026 17:56

You have been told again and again and again that 61 you keep ✌️Quoting✌️ is the judges musing not the law.

Helleofabore · 05/10/2026 17:57

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/10/2026 14:46

I did exactly the same thing the first time I saw it, a year or so ago, as I clocked it as odd then. I remembered who had used it then when it was used again recently and it confirmed a suspicion I already had.

It explains the complete lack of evidence and the adherence to philosophical theories and existentialism though. And the refusal to ever list a single sex provision that can allow male people.

Plus ca change when you realise.

nicepotoftea · 05/10/2026 18:04

MyAmpleSheep · 05/10/2026 17:55

For anything requiring building approval since 2024, Approved document T requires single sex toilets with approved signage. There's not a lot of wiggle room there to have "inclusive" toilet signs.

Presumably a judge commenting on discrimination law is not also required to comment on building regs that might also be relevant to a policy?

Taztoy · 05/10/2026 18:08

Taztoy · 05/10/2026 16:43

@Lacksie what about the example I’ve asked you numerous times?

You know, the one where I’ve requested a female HCP to furtle in my fanny, and be told yes it is a woman that will be attending to me.

Should a trans woman be allowed to turn up and have a rummage or not?

@Lacksie in case you missed it.

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