Two-year-old euthanised in Netherlands in first assisted dying case of its kind

[IwantToRetire]

I'm not going to select any part of the article but just post the link for those who want to read
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/netherlands-infant-2-euthanised-assisted-37709218

Which proves my point that when certain individuals lobby to legalise euthanising people against their express wishes (which is currently murder) when it is too ‘expensive’ or ‘too much effort’ to provide hospice care that I really fear for the future of disabled people like myself. There have been cases of disabled people in poverty being forced to request MAiD because there is no assisted living housing and they’re being made homeless.

Ceasing to artificially prolong life with invasive treatments is different to actively bringing about someone's death.

Sorry? When did I quote any statistics? I have said this happens and said there was one documented case and scientists are concerned there are others that have been swept under the carpet. This is fact.

What is also fact is that euthanasia is never self chosen because self chosen euthanasia does not exist. What you are calling self chosen euthanasia is actually called assisted suicide. So get your terminology correct.

And why are you so blasé about these murders? We abolished capital punishment because of only a handful of innocents were executed over decades, but you seem fine with abuse of assisted dying that results in what are billed as assisted suicide are actually euthanasia and murder but so far everyone involved in these few cases arent being prosecuted because the life of the person they took isn’t deemed valuable enough and the attitude is it was the humane thing to do even though that person did not want to die like that.

My dishonesty? Seriously? You are the only one who has gotten their facts wrong and pretends to knowledge you do not have.

There is hope for anyone not terminally ill who suffers from chronic pain. I’m not talking about people in the end stages of fatal diseases.

My understanding is this little one was not terminally ill but was disabled. I find it very troubling when any disabled person dies due to assisted dying, even more so a child, even more so a child who cannot possibly say if that is what they want. In a climate where care and support is often woefully lacking, as a parent to a disabled child and I am deeply thankful that this would be illegal in the UK. I can’t imagine how many desperate parents might choose it because there is no help. To me the answer is for goodness sake let’s help families with disabled children.

I agree with you that NO ONE should be killed against their will. In the UK there is a huge shortage of carers so if there’s no one to care for ill and disabled people what will happen? People are living longer with more complex health needs than ever before. You can’t make people become carers. It is an incredibly demanding job. Adult social care is collapsing fast.

For the third time, STOP putting comments in quotes that I never said. This is dishonest. These are your misrepresentations of my posts.

I am not in intense pain all the time and the pain I do have is manageable. Hilariously, the one condition you suggested as a really good reason for you to decide to murder euthanise a patient or loved one was trigemal neuralgia except you got it all wrong about this condition which I have as well as others that cause chronic pain.

Like most abled people, who don’t suffer from chronic pain, you are making assumptions about our quality of live and judgements as to whether our lives are worth living without ever walking in our shoes or even bothering to research medical conditions to ascertain the pain level and frequency or the treatments that do help.

The mocking of hydro-therapy was especially ignorant.

Sorry, but you are describing assisted suicide, not euthanasia. All euthanasia is involuntary as it is a mercy killing and one of the exceptions to murder like killing in self defence.

That falls under palliative care when the person is already dying because they are in the end stages of a fatal condition.

We are talking about children and adults who are not terminally ill and whether it’s ok for someone else to decide to euthanise them. We also aren’t talking about adults consenting to assisted suicide.

Agree, that is my concern. It’s not like if a mistake is made you’d ever know and ever be held accountable, so that generates a sense of invulnerability and the line as to who you’d be willing to euthanise creeps and creeps. The only people losing out are the ones that end up in coffins, and it is final.

That’s not euthanasia, that is assisted suicide. Stop conflating the two.

The doctors in this case disagreed about whether the child was suffering badly at that time but there was no doubt the child had suffered a great deal and was going to go on suffering. Children should not have to suffer torture.

Has it ever occurred to you some people might have had enough of living? Just because you have hope, some people want to die.

We had exactly this conversation at work yesterday. I feel the same, whatever the age of the sick person.

As a nation we spend a lot of resources,
money, time, space, mental and physical effort looking after people who will never be able to enjoy anything like a reasonable standard of life, often to the detriment of the carers’ own lives and of those around them, and at huge cost that could arguably be better spent elsewhere.

They have the option of suicide if they really want to die. It is quite a different matter involving third parties and the State in this - it brings up serious ethical questions.

That is what 'Do Not Resucitate' arrangments are meant to recognise. If someone is in a prolonged or very serious condition and their heart stops then active interventions to resusitate cease. This is permitting an inevitable and natural death - but not actively bringing it about.

That relies on the patient having the capacity to request a DNR in the first place. This baby couldn’t have done that, and neither could someone with advanced dementia.

In countries where euthanasia and assisted dying are legal, the State and third parties have chosen this route because they deem it ethical.

It is not about value. It is about whether life is bearable. It is medical staff that are assessing the level of quality of life which is extremely complex and does not relate to disability. If I was in constant pain AND had no quality of life then I would not want my life to be artificially prolonged. Because I am pretty sure that this child could not live without complex medical treatment. So we are not artificially killing someone we are allowing them to die naturally but the process is hastened to avoid further suffering. We are fed the myth that medicine can fix everything and we comfort ourselves with that but for some people life is simply not worth living.

I certainly don’t believe in pressure being brought to bear on disabled people to end their lives and you talk about ‘cases’ without giving any evidence that this is true. As for palliative care it is not the golden answer it is painted. I know personally of people for whom it did not work and they were screaming in agony but were told by the palliative team that nothing more could be done for them. There are many, many documented cases where people were begging to be allowed to die but were forced to die in agony and suffering.

Do answer the point.

And you may find living with intense complex pain bearable enough to not want euthanasia, but others do not and you refuse to acknowledge or accept that.

Since you impose your position on others without respecting their experience, why, exactly, should they respect yours?

Like most abled people, who don’t suffer from chronic pain, you are making assumptions about our quality of live and judgements as to whether our lives are worth living without ever walking in our shoes or even bothering to research medical conditions to ascertain the pain level and frequency or the treatments that do help.

and FYI, I receive carer's allowance for decades now because Im disabled. Legacy benefit.

But I dont have the soaring arrogance to assume that because I'm disabled, no one else can have an opinion on the matter or only mine is right.

Yes, I have met people like this as young adults. Severely physically and cognitively disabled, blind, can't sleep, agitated/shouting/screaming much of the time, multiple ongoing seizures, doctors trying their best to help with symptoms, and mums still doing everything they can.

As for palliative care it is not the golden answer it is painted. I know personally of people for whom it did not work and they were screaming in agony but were told by the palliative team that nothing more could be done for them. There are many, many documented cases where people were begging to be allowed to die but were forced to die in agony and suffering.

This, and the plight of people who live in agony that is unmanageable, is my concern.

There is cruelty by action and cruelty by inaction.

Both are unforgivable. The only excuse is simple ignorance, but when people who are against euthanasia consistently choose to ignore the actual reality of some people's lives, there is something deeply dishonest and wrong.