How to deal with 'mean girl' behaviour from so-called tolerant left

[BruachAbhann]

Does anyone else find it hard to deal with the mean girl type behaviour that comes from women from the so-called tolerant left? I can see why some women have been silenced by other women when it comes to transgender issues. There's a certain type of woman who wants to be seen as super tolerant but is actually only tolerant of people who share their particular views, the type who labels GC women as 'bigots' and 'transphobes'.

In my small town, about 3 years ago my husband and I went for dinner and drinks in a new neighbour's house.
She brought up the topic of transwomen and I disagreed that transwomen were literally women. She shrieked at me, called me all sorts of names and we wrapped up the evening as cordially as possible but it was so uncomfortable. Since then, she has basically blanked me or been very cold every time she sees me. I've gotten used to it. It bothers me sometimes though as my husband expressed the very same views and she's all nicey nice to him. What bothers me more is that her daughter blanks my daughter and my daughter has nothing to do with this. I told my daughter it's probably because of that conversation we had.

What is it with certain women though? They just can't see they are basically destroying women's rights by not demanding to keep single sex spaces and by actively working to include men. Not only that, but they are abusive to and intolerant of women who do not share their mindset. Using this person as an example, they think they are caring and 'on the right side of history'. They are not willing to even entertain the possibility that they could be wrong. No doubt she considers herself a feminist but she doesn't mind men in women's toilets, can't understand how it's possible to tell a man from a woman, thinks she can consent for other women to allow men into women's spaces.

Sometimes I find it hard to deal with this type of person. There are a good portion of them in my small town and I feel the chill from them. They use the typical mean girl tactics of social exclusion, gossip, character assassination. It's a hard road to walk to hold the line and know that you're doing the right thing when you're dealing with the practical fall out and it's not just some notional online battle. I know there are lots of people dealing with this and with much worse. It just makes me very sad that women are treating other women like this without any real consideration for the short or long term consequences and without extending basic human kindness to others.

Thinking about Sall Grover and how amazing she has been in taking on the entire Australian government makes me very emotional. Seeing people like that speaking out and putting their entire lives on the line is empowering and puts my battle into perspective but I suppose we are all pushing back from our corners of the world and sometimes it does take its toil emotionally and mentally. Today is one of those days!

The big mistake here was talking politics. Even if you didn't bring it up, you still entered into an argument with her which turned out to destroy the relationship (sorry I don't believe she was the only one who was aggressively arguing/shouting). I have friends who I'm pretty sure I don't share politics with as I'm right wing and they are far left, but I don't court trouble by arguing about things I know they will not change their minds about (and frankly I'm not going to change my mind either).

I find it strange you don't believe me that she was the only one aggressively arguing/shouting. I've seen plenty of 'discussions' online which mirrored the scenario, where the person saying TWAW is far more aggressive than the person trying to stick to the truth. There are countless examples in real life of women peacefully protesting and being shouted at/abused/threatened by TRAs. Why do you think the same dynamics wouldn't play out in this case?
I was arguing my case but I wasn't shouting or being aggressive. I didn't call her names or tell her I'd never met anyone as 'extreme' as her as she did to me. She wouldn't let me get a word in edgeways anyway. I was stating that people can't change sex and refuting her argument that it's impossible to tell the difference between men and women ( simple saying about different lung capacity, muscle mass, height, chromosomes -nothing too extreme at all). Obviously, I think the more extreme view to hold is that people can change sex.

The funny thing was that when my husband started to say the same thing she stopped shouting and listened respectfully to his entire few sentences! It was a marked difference in how she treated us and actually kind of comical at at the time.
It was a big mistake to engage at all. Replaying it in my mind, the only thing I can think to do differently if I was there again is just try change the subject or ask her questions about why she held her opinion and pretend to take it on board as reasonable. She half apologised at the time and said she can come across as a bit much sometimes but obviously still thought she was in the right and that I deserved to be put in line or something. I was a lot more naive back then and thought people just didn't have the facts and that of course if I explained the situation they would agree with me. I laugh at my innocence now! So yes, that's a long way to say I agree with you- the big mistake was talking politics!

I think because girls and women tend to place more value and emphasis on realtionships and relating to other people it hurts more when a woman, who you imagined to be a friend, purposefully excludes you or cuts you off for transgressing the social and political boundaries she has put in place to give her social credibility or worth.Men do it too, of course, but female relationships can be more brittle in certain ways and maybe subject to spitefulness and bitching when people fall out. 'Mean girls' are definitely 'a thing'. With the poisonous vibes and cold cruelty.

And people who identify themselves as being on the left or 'progressive' are particularly susceptible to cutting people off and shaming them when it comes down to political disagreement.

Also the double standards when it comes down to treating their female friends differently to male friends is probably down to an insecurity that should they talk to men in that way then they'd be seen as a ball-breaking bitch...and they don't want that. They want men to like them. Maybe subliminally women are more afraid of men and what they could do if they fell out with them.

How judgemental.....you are illustrating exactly what the OP was referring to. Relationships and communications involve two people, and both are responsible for their responses and words. And sometimes it really is the one person who is at fault for escalating unnecessarily, and in an aggressive manner.

I believe you didn’t shout or become aggressive. Sometimes people feel so strongly about something they react as the woman did. The only thing you can do really is learn that some issues are best left outside discussion. Unless you know the person well and both can handle it.

That's exactly it. And women are definitely primed to be agreeable and fit it and not cause a scene so they are not turfed out of the tribe because not only would it be social suicide but in primitive times, they wouldn't have been able to survive on their own without the support of the tribe. That instinct to be accepted is very engrained in our mindsets and it does take bravery to speak out against the norm. Men would have had to deal with the threat of physical violence from other men and women would have had a different threat of emotional violence/social exclusion.

Actually I don't full accept that it was somehow my fault for entering the discussion, as I may have indicated before. I think it's normal to assume someone is capable of being reasonable and I continued the discussion in good faith. If no-one ever questioned the accepted narrative of the left, that TWAW, we would never be where we are. Unfortunately, sometimes we've had to do this in real life with real life consequences.

I really don't think they are on the left to be honest. Having spent a bit of time on Reddit yesterday for my sins. Unless socialism literally means believing in pink brains and gendered souls and nothing else.

TRAs don't seem to be remotely interested in the core values of socialism ie improving the Material conditions of the working people. Housing , public transport, education, foreign policy all seem to bore them shitless. Health is reduced to providing them with hormones and puberty blockers.

But of course they may claim to be in the left. Most of their political support comes from liberals of the professional and managerial class. Not that that they are capable of making such distinctions. But we should know better?

I don’t think anyone changes their mind though in rl arguments. It just entrenches people.

There has been a lot of change though, I’d say posting on here has more impact than a clash irl.

I just think it takes two to tango. The story we have is your side, which obviously paints you as someone who didn't say or do anything wrong, but I just don't buy it myself. I think both you and the other woman got into a heated argument that ended the relationship. I don't personally know if you were shouting or anything but I'm pretty confident you was adding fuel to the fire in continuing to argue with her.

Sometimes you just have to accept people are not going to change their minds and just nod your head and move on to discussing something else. Especially if you want to preserve the relationship.

My new, more subtle approach whenever this happens is to plant seeds of doubt in people's minds, to ask questions and wonder innocently about how children might be affected by early medication or whether it's fair that men are allowed in women's sports- the obvious things that might allow a chink to appear in people's thought processes. I sometimes also mention that I think open discussion is important and that I don't like the way some people are branded racist etc for expressing concerns about child safety and women's rights. That usually gives them pause to consider the situation from a different perspective.

The wrong thing I said/did was not agreeing that TWAW. It's strange that you can't imagine this would be enough to warrant being shouted at in her mind, given all you probably know about this area and considering you seem well up on gender discussions in general.

I think entering the argument was the mistake (if your goal was to preserve this friendship). All you need to say is "that's a interesting point, did you happen to see strictly last night..."

Really depends on how you define 'friendship', doesn't it? If there are certain reasonable topics for discussion that are off limits because the person will be unpleasant and then blank you, then that is not a friendship by my definition. I think the word 'friend' is used too loosely nowadays (perhaps because of 'Friends' buttons on SM). If I have to switch to talking about TV to avoid unpleasantness then that is an acquaintance, not a friend.

I agree. This is likely to be a much more effective approach and has certainly worked on me in the past.
I do wonder if, and this is not aimed at you in particular OP, people on the Left have got so used to sitting arround agreeing with each other about how they are always the RSOH and everyone else is stupid, venal or manipulated, that they are unable to cope with profound in-group disagreement when it occurs and simply resort to the name-calling, shouting and shaming that they use against opponents on the Right.

(if your goal was to preserve this friendship)

It wasn't, according to the OP, the woman was new to the area and had a get together at her house presumably to introduce herself to her new neighbours, and the first thing she does is get into an argument with one of her guests.

Great first impression she made, interesting you think the responsibility for not arguing lies with the OP and not the woman who picked a fight with her guest.

I am pretty left wing, as are most of my friends. One of my best friends has very different views on gender than myself. We both respect each others views and move on.

Being left wing doesn’t equal mean girl vibes, arseholes are across the entire political spectrum

Great first impression she made, interesting you think the responsibility for not arguing lies with the OP and not the woman who picked a fight with her guest.

I think the responsibility lies with both women, but the other woman is not on here (I would tell her the same I told OP). This whole situation could have been avoided if either woman decided to let it slide and not engage.

As much as I disagree with this poster's personal position, they're absolutely right that it has been the strategic alignment of 'transphobia' with homophobia and racism that makes people like the op's neighbour believe so vehemently that the OP is a terrible person. I wouldn't particularly want to associate with someone who I considered to be racist or homophobic, so I can see where the neighbour is coming from. Unfortunately lots of people do lack the critical thinking skills to realise that GC beliefs are not actually transphobic.

There's also a distinct likelihood that someone in the neighbour's life identifies as trans, which brings a very emotional side to their beliefs. And to paraphrase Helen Joyce, it is extremely difficult to accept that in supporting a young person who has transitioned you have actively harmed them. It makes people particularly entrenched in their views and I do have (some) sympathy for them actually.

I am a 'liberal lefty' and I have no issues with people having different views when it comes to trans people.

I think the issue here is that the person you spoke to is unable to have a normal debate and conversation and chose instead to become deranged...

The problem is the individual here not the fact that she might be a left wing voter.

I don't like censorship or the 'cancel' culture that we have had for the past few years.

I had a similar conversation with a friends teen son. He was very much of the “be kind” opinion, they should be allowed to use the toilets they wish, it’s so hard for them, oppressed etc etc.

told him women’s rights weren’t his to give away. People can’t change sex, end of.

Empathy and understanding, as long as they agree with you?

I think many people of the ‘be kind’ variety are motivated by the need to be in ‘the group’ and form an identity from excluding/loathing those outside it. I have joined a few causes/groups over the years hoping to do good and been put off by this tendency. They virtue signal ‘kindness’ while remaining blind to their own bigotry. I have noticed this recently with a friend who is obsessed with terfs and how evil and bigoted they are but now that I look back I see this ‘us and them’ approach in things they’ve done in the past. It’s disappointing, partly because I thought this person was genuinely kind and open minded but also because I respected their intellect but if their only response to women raising reasonable concerns politely is to call them hateful bigots, they are not engaging rationally.