Wanting to discuss trans people with non gender critical folks

[Taztoy]

I’ve been on another thread - and other threads - and I’d like to talk to anyone who believes that trans women are women and trans men are men.

I don’t understand how that works and I’ve tried on other threads to get engagement , and it hasn’t worked.

so. I’m starting a thread.

I promise I am asking genuinely and I really do want to debate.

I don’t understand how I can tell if a trans woman is genuine.

I don’t understand how the laws could be written to make it work.

I don’t understand how it works as it competes with sex based rights.

I will probably regret starting this but I’d really like to understand

The aim of this thread is surely for people who believe in this 'scientific consensus' to explain why they believe it over the whole of the history of human evolution?

Maybe show the OP which 'scientific consensus' you are talking about? Unfortunately you cannot include anything from WPATH after they recently admitted in a USA court they were making it all up and it was just all their 'opinions'. So anything from a different source would be fab. Thanks in advance.

To be honest though I think this is the wrong place to ask for views from people who are not gender critical. FWR is where mainly gender critical women hang out.

I think it's a great place to have this conversation. I am 100% behind protecting women's rights, 100% behind JKR. But I don't want that vehement understanding of what we stand to lose to blind me to what other people's needs are that don't match my own. I would love to hear from trans or pro-trans people who are willing to discuss the importance of respecting each other's rights and not creating battlelines.

an entire generation seems to believe that memes on tiktok and insta are more reliable sources than textbooks and reports written by experts.

Alas not only the younger generation but all generations are susceptible to this belief. Exploited and weaponised by cynical men manipulating politics.

@AnonyMumAuDHD what you said is ready interesting and something I’ve not thought about but yes can absolutely see that thanks to the prolific and successful efforts by TRAs to muddy the waters that many people are uninformed or misinformed by the pseudo scientific claims. Such that they come to believe there is no middle ground when we both hold what we understand to be fact-based truths.

It’s not something you can reason with.

The OP literally asked for points of reason that can be critically examined.

It is glaringly obvious that you are unable to bring any.

"People are what they say they are" sounds good but doesn't stand up to the slightest examination.

TPA constantly refers to 'safe spaces' in TPA's posts instead of the accurate 'single sex spaces'.

If the accurate 'single sex spaces' were used, TPA's arguments would not hold up.

https://www.ptsduk.org/how-writing-can-help-people-with-ptsd/

It has been shown that writing (free writing, timed, for 15 minutes at a time) can be effective for alleviating symptoms of trauma.

I would suggest approaching it while you have a trusted therapist or friend to hand.

I have done this, for dv, and it really did seem to help.

Timed, 15 minutes each session, for five days in a row. Keep the hand moving. Write whatever comes to mind.

Allow for time afterwards to rest and regather.

This comes, I think, from this Pennebacker method.

https://blogs.flinders.edu.au/student-health-and-well-being/2025/11/27/four-writing-exercises-that-might-improve-your-health/

https://www.londonwriterscentre.org.uk/library/a-pocket-guide-to-writing-through-trauma/

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/the-last-best-cure/202509/healing-trauma-through-transformative-writing-practices

I don't believe this question would last ten minutes on Reddit.

Unfortunately, anyone dissenting from TWAW is banned very quickly.

So many words, so much nonsense. Also, lumping trans identifying men in with lesbians is the very epitome of homophobia.
A lesbian would no more find a trans identifying man a suitable dating partner than a non trans identifying man, because she’s same sex attracted. We no more need to ‘accept’ that a man who declares himself a woman is indeed a woman than we need to accept that a person who identifies as a cat is indeed a cat, or a 50 year old who identifies as a baby is indeed a baby.

Can I ask - where do you stand on men in women's prisons, rape support services, dv services, changing rooms?

Woman isn’t a feeling, it’s a state of being brought about by being born female and reaching adulthood.
Have a read of this https://genspect.substack.com/p/typology-classification-and-diagnosis
Then watch this. https://x.com/TwisterFilm/status/2097421043774173431/video/1?s=61
John Money was heralded for introducing ‘gender identity theory’ by lying about his ‘research’ and has now been massively discredited.
WPATH have also been discredited worldwide for lying about the impact on people with a diagnosis of gender dysphoria in order to make it seem that medication and surgery is the answer to their distress.

HINT: the answer to anyone who is suffering a mental health illness such as gender dysphoria is not chopping bits of their bodies off or going along with their delusions. People with anorexia have body dysmorphia but you would no more tell them that yes, they are indeed overweight and should continue to starve themselves than you would tell them to jump off a bridge!

So currently we have 'because they said so'. And some 'science' that does not appear to be able to be linked.

I'm sorry to hear about your experiences. And it's really helpful to see your arguments laid out, so thanks.

The problem is if men want to use our toilets, they could say they’re TM now, big, beefy, bearded TM and access our spaces that way.

The Supreme Court judgment specifically talked about how if a woman had taken such steps to make herself look convincingly male, she could be excluded from women's spaces. This was part of their reasoning for recommending third (fourth) spaces.

Men have found ways to attack us and rape us, abuse and kill us without the need of being in bathrooms with us, without being in our changing rooms or even our prisons. I worry that we need to shift that focus back. We will always be raped by men. No matter what they’re wearing, if a man wants to rape a woman, that man will find a way.

I've been followed into a ladies' loo by a crossdressing man, who then masturbated at the sink. So, I have direct experience of sexual assault in exactly the instance in question. From a man who used a 'trans' identity (a cheap wig, some lippy, and a skirt) as cover to access a young girl in an enclosed space when vulnerable (I was a teenager).

But let's zoom back a bit.

Men are larger and stronger than women. Men commit 99% of all sex crimes, and 80% of all violent crime.
Women (and children) are, at a population level, at risk from men. That's really not in question, is it?

As we are civilised, we have rules and laws to protect people from predators, criminals, and violent people. We also have rules and laws to help those who experience disadvantage (people with protected characteristics) achieve equity.

Predators will go to extraordinary lengths to access victims and undermine boundaries, yes. This is exactly why we need rules, laws, conventions etc. They provide a modicum of protection for women. And the argument that some will break laws isn't an argument for removing the law.

If an ideology undermines the rules of law and the rights of women that have been put in place to protect women (and/or children), then I will fight that movement every step of the way. Because the rule of law and societal conventions and the social contract are how women and children are protected.

I don't really care how a man chooses to live his life, what he chooses to wear, what he does with his hair.

But when he goes after my rights, I will fight back. Women need our rights, and many (most) of use refuse to concede them just because some men want to access our spaces. I don't really care what the men's arguments are, to be honest. If they are trying to undermine or diminish my legal rights, I'm not interested in their feelings. Only in ensuring that my rights, and my daughter's rights, and my elderly mother's rights, are protected.

Changing language to suit? I’m shocked.

When I see you quote me I think, uh oh, mama coming to set me straight here, I’ve said something wrong! That’s a compliment, I love your posts and writing very much. I always hope I’ve not said something daft.

I’m sorry that happened to you. Absolute fucking psychotic behaviour to do that.
I had a similar experience as a teenager, minus the cross dressing aspect, I hope you don’t mind me telling you about, on the back of the bus, some big massive bastard chose the seat next to me and took his penis out and started masturbating. I shouted down to the front of the bus, the driver slammed down and ran to the back of the bus, dragged this bloke, punched him in the face and asked me did I want to drop him off in the middle of nowhere/call the police or just get home to mum. I chose the latter. We were the only passengers. That was my bus home from work, so I took the same route 3 times a week. About 10 days after that happened a few stops away I was on the bus and I used to put my head down on the seat in front of me. (Also, this is really outing, so if anyone knows me irl hello!) So the bus stops, then waits at the red light. That was when the bus window went through, I was covered head to toe in glass and blood, the driver screamed because I was so covered in blood. He thought that the crowbar that put the window in had gone into my head but actually besides shock I was fine, the glass is that shatter glass so whilst I was full of blood it was from teeny little shards, not anything enough to seriously cut my skin. The driver rang my mums pal for me, she came and met me at the hospital, my mum was working nights and I didn’t want to bother her. I do think even now, it was probably the big old wanker who did that, being a dumb teen, I never changed my route, never changed my seat even. And I had seen him prior to the masturbating incident, I’d never said hello or anything to him, just seen him loitering around the off licence near the bus stop. The police never found the person who smashed the window or the big fella to question him. As a teenager I had loads of these kind of situations, things I could talk about on here up until about 22/23. As soon as I looked more like an adult it stopped. Young girls are so at risk from these horrendous creatures.

I didn’t know TM were still able to access men’s toilets, that’s safer for women but still bizarre. The fourth space needs to happen. And many men and women will use it out of ease, those who don’t care, so it’s not like it’s only being for a small minority, it’s there so a larger minority can feel safer.

I think a massive problem is what you’ve said, you don’t care how people choose to present. I feel the same, but others do and that’s when the argument of women’s safety and rights can get lost. How other people present isn’t our business as long as they’re not exposing themselves. I often think back to poor wee Sophie Lancaster, murdered for how she presented. When people throw slurs at TW it takes away the credibility of why we need safe spaces away from men.

Trans people aren’t going anywhere, predators aren’t going anywhere, safety is paramount and we need that fourth space.

Exactly this. People don’t get to impose their beliefs on everyone else. Which is the single most difficult and upsetting departure from reality of this entire movement.

Lawren, you’re thoughtful and kind, and as a fellow survivor I’m sorry for what you went through, but you’re also quite naive. TIMs are not Sophie Lancaster and gender critical women are not her attackers, whether they laugh at ridiculous looking men pretending to be women or not. That’s a false picture that enables abusive men.

TIMs are men. Men are highly more likely to be violent and motivated by sexual interest. No, they’re not all sexual predators but their presence in women’s spaces is a violation in and of itself. It’s a boundary violation. They know most women don’t want them there. And that’s a red flag. Even your friends.

Men like the ones we are talking about, many of them actively get sexual gratification from making women uncomfortable. That doesn’t always escalate, but sometimes it does. And when that isn’t enough, it’s not only our privacy and dignity at stake.

I appreciate your kindness, thank you. I do hate the idea of mocking anybody for their presentation and I do probably over think it that if we allow the mockery of TW, (sorry I’m not sure what a TiM is?) then will that ever embolden the wrong people who will take it to far and physically harm a trans person. We can’t be too careful in my opinion about spreading hate. You’re of course right it’s a different situation to the Sophie Lancaster comparison, it just does really concern me that when hatred for something different spirals, tragedy such as that happens.

For the women who don’t want TW in their spaces, I stand with those women, even over my friends and they understand my reasoning. They both use disabled toilets due to disability anyway these days, not just to keep out of the way.
It’s sad really because of men wanting to harm women, that we must be suspicious and scared of them at all times, but they’ve done this and we must act with our safety first, not the feelings of TW.
It’s hard for me to say that because I have always wanted to be respectful to others regardless of their presentation but my concern for women and children comes first always, hence why I do enjoy this board and learning from the posters here x

Men murdered Sophie and put her boyfriend (Robert?) into a coma. Not women, gender critical or otherwise.

The problem faced by goths and the trans-identifying alike is male violence.

Yes, my worry is that if we normalise being dreadful about the presentation of others. (Such as TW getting abuse) then the boundaries are lowered in the way it was normal for goths and emos to be abused. I appreciate its male violence, I really do, but I think by being unnecessarily cruel about people’s appearance we embolden men who are already looking for a reason to incite violence. It’s the chain of causation that really concerns me with male violence. I don’t want anybody getting hurt.

Coming back to one point, I am a woman in her late 50s.

If I woke up tomorrow in a man's body, there is zero way id take my new penis into a female toilet. Id use the urinals in the gents, remembering to use my other hand to unzip.

The thought of using the ladies with my new man's body is absolutely not what would happen in this thought experiment.

trans people and their allies have issued death threats, rape threats and violence to women. I assume you’re going on trash Reddit and bluesky to tell them to stop it? If not, why not? Why come and tell women to be nice and not the people issuing threats?

What a horrible and terrifying experience. Well done for shouting out, and good on that bus driver. The rage of abusive men can be so spectacularly awful.

I think just about everyone reasonable can agree that nobody should be slurred or attacked. Predators and abusers should be dealt with through the proper channels.

Kindness is an interesting thing though. Sometimes it means being brave, and sometimes it means saying 'no'.

I didn’t know TM were still able to access men’s toilets, that’s safer for women but still bizarre.

Transmen can't use the men's toilets. The FWS judgment said they can be asked to use unisex facilities instead of the women's if available but not that they should use the men's.

@Taztoy Why the use of the word "folk" and not "people"?