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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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15
thirdfiddle · 30/07/2026 19:51

"It's gender related distress" isn't the diagnosis sunnibee, it's the symptom. Saying it's gender related distress doesn't rule out it being related to stereotypes, or puberty distress, or anxiety, or autism.

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 19:56

Seethlaw · 30/07/2026 19:47

Thing is, though, this is not how so many other trans people and TRAs present the trans experience.

They don't say, "I need to present as a wo/man," they say, "I am a wo/man," which is a completely different proposition, one that is both impossible (no, we can't be the opposite sex) and offensive (on what basis do we assume that we know what being the other sex is like?)

They also don't satisfy themselves with presenting their truth by presenting as the other sex; they demand/expect that people affirm them 24/7.

In fact, that's one reason I think there should be urgent research into a psychotherapy for gender dysphoria: because I think a lot of trans people would be happier if they didn't let themselves be convinced by TRAs that they need to believe they are the other sex, or that they are mistreated every time someone misgenders them, or that they need to reach for as complete a transition as possible. I think they'd be a lot happier if they received psychological support to give them the necessary space to decide how far they want to take their transition, and what goals they want to reach.

Actually a lot of people describe an experience of feeling like they are "lying" in just the way you have, or sometimes they describe it as a pretence. So the description of personal experience of gender dysphoria is often very consistent/ similar.

what's often very different is the ways that people conceptualise sex/ gender / being a man/ woman , and the use of different terminologies. That's not surprising really- that there would be a range of different views .

One thing I do agree with you on, and I think a lot of other people would as well, is that there should be more research in psychological support to give people the necessary space to decide how far they want to take their transition, and what goals they want to reach.

AimsAndObjectives · 30/07/2026 20:02

Bottom line for me is that we all have to go through puberty in order to gain a mature adult understanding of our identity. PBs and the inevitable progression to cross-sex hormones rob the child of that opportunity. That is a human-rights level of abuse. No attempt to give a child 'passing privilege' can justify that.

SodThisHeadache · 30/07/2026 20:05

thirdfiddle · 30/07/2026 19:51

"It's gender related distress" isn't the diagnosis sunnibee, it's the symptom. Saying it's gender related distress doesn't rule out it being related to stereotypes, or puberty distress, or anxiety, or autism.

Exactly - I'd add sexual assault, or trauma related to seeing your male role model assaulting your female role model, or having experienced homophobia, or Munchausens by Proxy

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 20:05

AimsAndObjectives · 30/07/2026 20:02

Bottom line for me is that we all have to go through puberty in order to gain a mature adult understanding of our identity. PBs and the inevitable progression to cross-sex hormones rob the child of that opportunity. That is a human-rights level of abuse. No attempt to give a child 'passing privilege' can justify that.

Why do you believe someone has to experience endogenous puberty to develop a mature adult identity? That’s a very specific claim, but you’ve presented it as though it’s self-evident.

Identity is shaped by a lifetime of biological, psychological and social experiences. Suggesting that one particular developmental process is a prerequisite for a mature sense of self seems an unnecessarily narrow view of how identity develops. What evidence supports that claim?

spannasaurus · 30/07/2026 20:07

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 20:05

Why do you believe someone has to experience endogenous puberty to develop a mature adult identity? That’s a very specific claim, but you’ve presented it as though it’s self-evident.

Identity is shaped by a lifetime of biological, psychological and social experiences. Suggesting that one particular developmental process is a prerequisite for a mature sense of self seems an unnecessarily narrow view of how identity develops. What evidence supports that claim?

Why do you think a person who does not go through puberty will mature into an adult?

Shortshriftandlethal · 30/07/2026 20:14

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 17:26

Yes you are right, my language was really clumsy here. it was late at night and I was starting to ramble 😅.

I've tried to clarify what I've meant more precisely since.

I think the problem is that people understand 'gender'/ social gender categories/ roles as being reducible in a simple way to 'stereotypes'.
The reasoning then becomes: if someone experiences a gender that does not align with their sex, that must be because they have internalised mistaken stereotypes about what it means to be male or female. From that perspective, the solution is to challenge those stereotypes and change society so they no longer exist.

I wanted to acknowledge that there is a certain logic to the idea that, if we lived in a world without socially meaningful categories of male and female, then the experience of being in the "wrong" one might also disappear.

The difficulty is that this strikes me as utopian. We can and should challenge harmful stereotypes and reduce the extent to which people are constrained by gendered expectations. But I don't think we can eliminate the social significance of the categories themselves. They are not only collections of stereotypes; they are rooted in real biological differences that have social consequences. We can reject the idea that women should do the cooking, for example, but it seems much harder to imagine a society in which being male or female carries no social meaning whatsoever.

Indeed, if anything, current developments appear to be moving in the opposite direction. The EHRC guidance, for example, places renewed emphasis on recognising sex-based categories and organising some aspects of society around them.

Categories of male and female therefore remain socially meaningful. So too does the experience, for a minority of people, of profound distress at being somehow in the 'wrong' one - physically and socially. That is the phenomenon referred to as gender dysphoria.

Edited

Surely the response to distress around 'gender' is not to reinforce 'gender' as being the solution - it is to move beyond gender prescriptions.

AimsAndObjectives · 30/07/2026 20:18

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 20:05

Why do you believe someone has to experience endogenous puberty to develop a mature adult identity? That’s a very specific claim, but you’ve presented it as though it’s self-evident.

Identity is shaped by a lifetime of biological, psychological and social experiences. Suggesting that one particular developmental process is a prerequisite for a mature sense of self seems an unnecessarily narrow view of how identity develops. What evidence supports that claim?

Now I know that you do not have anything useful to say on this entire topic. Au revoir.

Shortshriftandlethal · 30/07/2026 20:20

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 20:05

Why do you believe someone has to experience endogenous puberty to develop a mature adult identity? That’s a very specific claim, but you’ve presented it as though it’s self-evident.

Identity is shaped by a lifetime of biological, psychological and social experiences. Suggesting that one particular developmental process is a prerequisite for a mature sense of self seems an unnecessarily narrow view of how identity develops. What evidence supports that claim?

The brain and its developmental process is also part of puberty.

You find that children who missed out the correct 'nourishment' at key developmental milestsones can find it extremely difficult ever to catch up. The maturation process has definite developmental windows. I used to teach some children who seemed frozen at the developmental age of about 4 years of age, even though they were 11, 12 and 13 years of age. You see it now with the post covid children - who didn't get the social stimulation they required at the ages they required it; and whose language, communication and physical skills and co-ordination are now stunted. You cannot get that time back.

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 20:39

spannasaurus · 30/07/2026 20:07

Why do you think a person who does not go through puberty will mature into an adult?

There are lots of groups of children who do not go through endogenous puberty and instead receive HRT to induce hormonal changes. What evidence do you have that these children do not mature into adults with a mature adult identity?

These include children with:

  • primary ovarian insufficiency
  • primary testicular failure
  • hypogonadtropic hypogonadism
  • CAIS
  • children who have had their ovaries or testes removed because of cancer or other medical conditions.
spannasaurus · 30/07/2026 20:47

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 20:39

There are lots of groups of children who do not go through endogenous puberty and instead receive HRT to induce hormonal changes. What evidence do you have that these children do not mature into adults with a mature adult identity?

These include children with:

  • primary ovarian insufficiency
  • primary testicular failure
  • hypogonadtropic hypogonadism
  • CAIS
  • children who have had their ovaries or testes removed because of cancer or other medical conditions.
Edited

Those conditions affect either the production or processing of oestrogen and testosterone which will affect sexual characteristic s but as far as I am aware the other parts of puberty that effect brain development are not affected.

Preventing puberty in total would affect brain development in addition to sexual characteristics

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 21:00

spannasaurus · 30/07/2026 20:47

Those conditions affect either the production or processing of oestrogen and testosterone which will affect sexual characteristic s but as far as I am aware the other parts of puberty that effect brain development are not affected.

Preventing puberty in total would affect brain development in addition to sexual characteristics

I'm not sure what you mean by this? Puberty is driven by hormones. If the concern is that sex hormones are important for brain development, then medically induced puberty through HRT is still exposure to sex hormones.There might be questions about timing and dosage, but why the assumption that to mature into an adult the hormones must come endogenous from the gonads rather than exogenously from prescription.

nutmeg7 · 30/07/2026 21:02

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 20:39

There are lots of groups of children who do not go through endogenous puberty and instead receive HRT to induce hormonal changes. What evidence do you have that these children do not mature into adults with a mature adult identity?

These include children with:

  • primary ovarian insufficiency
  • primary testicular failure
  • hypogonadtropic hypogonadism
  • CAIS
  • children who have had their ovaries or testes removed because of cancer or other medical conditions.
Edited

But they receive the correct hormones for their sexed body in these cases. Each person’s body is set up to work best with the correct sexed hormone balance, and if the body can’t provide it, it can be supplied exogenously.

Cross sex hormones are not healthy; they bring a lot of co-morbidities with them.

A man taking oestrogen at female levels does not go through female puberty. His body cannot respond to oestrogen by having periods or releasing eggs; he doesn’t have ovaries or fallopian tubes or a womb. All it does is increase his risk of stroke, move his fat distribution around a bit and make his breast area put down some fat. He doesn’t develop actual female breast tissue, the milk ducts are blind. It’s just fat.

Giving male levels of testosterone to women causes vaginal atrophy such as is seen in very elderly women.

None of this is healthy.

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 21:12

nutmeg7 · 30/07/2026 21:02

But they receive the correct hormones for their sexed body in these cases. Each person’s body is set up to work best with the correct sexed hormone balance, and if the body can’t provide it, it can be supplied exogenously.

Cross sex hormones are not healthy; they bring a lot of co-morbidities with them.

A man taking oestrogen at female levels does not go through female puberty. His body cannot respond to oestrogen by having periods or releasing eggs; he doesn’t have ovaries or fallopian tubes or a womb. All it does is increase his risk of stroke, move his fat distribution around a bit and make his breast area put down some fat. He doesn’t develop actual female breast tissue, the milk ducts are blind. It’s just fat.

Giving male levels of testosterone to women causes vaginal atrophy such as is seen in very elderly women.

None of this is healthy.

There are a lot of different claims bundled together there. Some are broadly correct, some are oversimplified, and some are inaccurate. Regardless none of them provide evidence for the claim that endogenous puberty is required for a person to develop into an adult and have a mature sense of themselves.

spannasaurus · 30/07/2026 21:19

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 21:00

I'm not sure what you mean by this? Puberty is driven by hormones. If the concern is that sex hormones are important for brain development, then medically induced puberty through HRT is still exposure to sex hormones.There might be questions about timing and dosage, but why the assumption that to mature into an adult the hormones must come endogenous from the gonads rather than exogenously from prescription.

A quick Google tells you that

Puberty starts when a part of the brain called the hypothalamus releases gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH). This chemical messenger signals the pituitary gland to release more hormones, which then tell the body's sex organs to make estrogen or testosterone.

In the conditions you listed the puberty signal is given but there is a problem with the oestrogen or testosterone. Puberty blockers stop the signal

OldCrone · 30/07/2026 21:28

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 21:12

There are a lot of different claims bundled together there. Some are broadly correct, some are oversimplified, and some are inaccurate. Regardless none of them provide evidence for the claim that endogenous puberty is required for a person to develop into an adult and have a mature sense of themselves.

Edited

Regardless none of them provide evidence for the claim that endogenous puberty is required for a person to develop into an adult and have a mature sense of themselves.

Can you provide evidence that it's not required? Or do you just propose experimenting on children to find out whether or not it's necessary?

BackToLurk · 30/07/2026 21:39

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 20:39

There are lots of groups of children who do not go through endogenous puberty and instead receive HRT to induce hormonal changes. What evidence do you have that these children do not mature into adults with a mature adult identity?

These include children with:

  • primary ovarian insufficiency
  • primary testicular failure
  • hypogonadtropic hypogonadism
  • CAIS
  • children who have had their ovaries or testes removed because of cancer or other medical conditions.
Edited

Can you tell us what the treatment is for prepubescent children diagnosed with POI?

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 22:01

spannasaurus · 30/07/2026 21:19

A quick Google tells you that

Puberty starts when a part of the brain called the hypothalamus releases gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH). This chemical messenger signals the pituitary gland to release more hormones, which then tell the body's sex organs to make estrogen or testosterone.

In the conditions you listed the puberty signal is given but there is a problem with the oestrogen or testosterone. Puberty blockers stop the signal

That's not quite right — it's more complicated than that.
PBs work by initially causing a brief surge of GnRH hormones. But after a few weeks of steady use, the pituitary gland stops responding to GnRH signals — it basically stops listening. The hypothalamus is still making GnRH the whole time. The drug doesn't touch GnRH production at all — it just makes the pituitary deaf to it.
Now compare that to a condition called Congenital Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism (CHH). In this condition, kids are actually missing the GnRH signal itself — the neurons that are supposed to make GnRH never developed properly.
So if the theory that "no GnRH = damaged brain development" were true, these kids should have the worst outcomes there. But the clinical worry in CHH isn't about GnRH per se; it's about the downstream absence of sex hormones and the solution is to supply those hormones exogenously.

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 22:03

BackToLurk · 30/07/2026 21:39

Can you tell us what the treatment is for prepubescent children diagnosed with POI?

estrogen replacement therapy

OldCrone · 30/07/2026 22:24

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 22:01

That's not quite right — it's more complicated than that.
PBs work by initially causing a brief surge of GnRH hormones. But after a few weeks of steady use, the pituitary gland stops responding to GnRH signals — it basically stops listening. The hypothalamus is still making GnRH the whole time. The drug doesn't touch GnRH production at all — it just makes the pituitary deaf to it.
Now compare that to a condition called Congenital Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism (CHH). In this condition, kids are actually missing the GnRH signal itself — the neurons that are supposed to make GnRH never developed properly.
So if the theory that "no GnRH = damaged brain development" were true, these kids should have the worst outcomes there. But the clinical worry in CHH isn't about GnRH per se; it's about the downstream absence of sex hormones and the solution is to supply those hormones exogenously.

Do you think it is ethically defensible to induce illness in physically healthy children?

What is the purpose of stopping puberty in physically healthy children?

Neversofaraway · 30/07/2026 22:31

Not liking your body isn't the same as wanting an opposite sex body. Somebody must be telling these children "well if you don't like this body you must be the opposite sex" who is saying that to them?

Dr Hopper got his feet chopped off because he didn't want them, he didn't get different feet.

OldCrone · 30/07/2026 22:44

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 20:39

There are lots of groups of children who do not go through endogenous puberty and instead receive HRT to induce hormonal changes. What evidence do you have that these children do not mature into adults with a mature adult identity?

These include children with:

  • primary ovarian insufficiency
  • primary testicular failure
  • hypogonadtropic hypogonadism
  • CAIS
  • children who have had their ovaries or testes removed because of cancer or other medical conditions.
Edited

"Some children have illnesses or conditions which mean they don't go through puberty naturally, therefore it's OK to prevent puberty in healthy children."

OldCrone · 30/07/2026 22:45

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 22:01

That's not quite right — it's more complicated than that.
PBs work by initially causing a brief surge of GnRH hormones. But after a few weeks of steady use, the pituitary gland stops responding to GnRH signals — it basically stops listening. The hypothalamus is still making GnRH the whole time. The drug doesn't touch GnRH production at all — it just makes the pituitary deaf to it.
Now compare that to a condition called Congenital Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism (CHH). In this condition, kids are actually missing the GnRH signal itself — the neurons that are supposed to make GnRH never developed properly.
So if the theory that "no GnRH = damaged brain development" were true, these kids should have the worst outcomes there. But the clinical worry in CHH isn't about GnRH per se; it's about the downstream absence of sex hormones and the solution is to supply those hormones exogenously.

And again: "Some children have illnesses or conditions which mean they don't go through puberty naturally, therefore it's OK to prevent puberty in healthy children."

What sort of person thinks like that?

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 22:55

@OldCrone Your question assumes that the relevant ethical issue is whether we should intervene in a "physically healthy" child. But these young people are not presenting at clinics because they are healthy, but because they are experiencing clinically significant distress.

Medicine often intervenes in normal physiological processes where the aim is to treat or prevent harm - including psychological harms. The ethical question is whether, for a carefully selected group of young people with persistent gender dysphoria, the potential benefits of puberty suppression outweigh the potential risks compared with the available alternatives.

The purpose of puberty blockers is not to "induce illness". It is to pause pubertal development while the young person undergoes further assessment and support, with the aim of reducing distress and avoiding irreversible pubertal changes during that period. Whether that achieves those aims, and for whom, is an empirical question.

I think we are going around in circles here so perhaps have reached an impasse.

OldCrone · 30/07/2026 22:59

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