Netherlands Puberty Blocker Review Comes to Opposite Conclusion, Dismisses Cass Review

[ForZingyCat]

https://www.gezondheidsraad.nl/adviesonderwerpen/behandeling-en-begeleiding/transgenderzorg-voor-jonger

No, they are billed as a "pause button". Something you are entitled to if you parrot the right answers to questions. As the Cass Report revealed, the field of gender medicine doesn't bother with boring stuff like rigorous data collection or follow-up studies.

Do you understand why the people or body leading a clinical review need to be independent? Why it would be important that those leading a review do not have vested interests in the specific practices being reviewed?

Paediatrics is the relevant clinical and scientific field.

As you are comparing gender dysphoria to precocious puberty, you must believe that gender dysphoria is also a serious medical condition. What are the symptoms of this serious medical condition and how is it diagnosed?

It is absolutely fundamental to a trans identity

It's really not. What everyone else feels is completely irrelevant to whether or not someone is trans.

There's a difference between expertise in a broad discipline and expertise in the specific subject under review. You wouldn't normally regard any paediatrician as equally qualified to lead an evidence review on paediatric oncology, neonatal intensive care, autism, or paediatric endocrinology simply because they're all part of paediatrics.

Ignoring what I said and doubling down doesn't doesn't change your wrong statement to a right one you know 😂

But please, prove me wrong.

Explain to me what the "man" in transman or "woman" in transwoman means and why this means we should believe transmen are men and transwomen are women, and why it means that the correct spaces for transmen are where the people you woukd call "cismen" are and the correct spaces for transwomen are where the people you would call "ciswomen" are, in a way that does not make any assumptions at all about how these "cis" people, or even other trans people, feel?

Keep up the good work everyone

OK, I'll try another question, as the subject of independence seems to befuddle you. Have you heard the phrase "marking your own homework", and do you understand what it means?

Exactly and the people at York Uni who conducted the Cass Review are specialists in their field of systematic reviewing. Medics conducting reviews in their own field often produce methodologically crap reviews.

The best reviews are done by a team of people with different specialisms - and it definitely helps to have a neutrality about the condition you are investigating - although having input from medics who know that condition well is also useful.

Sunnibee · Today 12:18
"It is absolutely fundamental to a trans identity"

It's really not. What everyone else feels is completely irrelevant to whether or not someone is trans.

I feel that trans people who believe what you believe (Transwomen Are Women; Transmen Are Men), are lying or delusional.

I will not ever agree to lie to someone with a delusion, nor will I ever agree that delusion should mean they be treated as if their delusion were real:

• in enabling them to take part in sports set aside for the opposite sex
• in enabling them to obtain jobs that are set aside for people who really are that sex,
• in enabling them to carry out intimate care on someone of the opposite sex,
• in enabling them to use toilets and changing rooms for the opposite sex,
• in enabling them to be housed in prisons , mental health wards or domestic violence hostels for the opposite sex.

You need me to agree with your delusion/lie in order to satisfy you. I expect me saying all this will upset you because you know you need people to agree in order to do whatever you want.

Because what you want is not to be left alone to believe your beliefs (you can think you're trans if you want!) - you want something to arise out of those beliefs and we won't give it to you.

Those are all large and well established fields. But pediatric gender medicine is a very small, new and contentious field; and none of the experienced practitioners in the area were qualified to run a review of evidence. Part of the reason for holding the review was the cavalier / negligent attitude to evidence and to evidence gathering that they'd shown so far, as revealed by the judicial review into practice at the Tavistock GIDS clinic.

So getitng someone to run the review who understands how to review the evidence, understands how paediatric medicine is generally supposed to work, and has no skin in the game, was exactly the right thing to do.

@Sunnibee @MashaPav

How do trans kids know they are trans?

Methodological neutrality is important, but subject-matter expertise isn't a source of bias to be eliminated. It's essential for framing the right questions, interpreting heterogeneous evidence, understanding the clinical context and recognising the limitations of the literature. You need both methods expertise and subject matter knowledge and understanding to conduct a high quality evidence review. The latter was lacking in the Cass team.

I thought you are trans yourself @Seethlaw ?
How do you know you are trans?

Can you answer the question you were asked?

How do trans kids know they are trans?

I know how I know I'm trans. I also know that I wouldn't give my kid self puberty blockers for that reason, because it wouldn't be the right treatment.

So I ask again: how do all those other trans kids know they are trans?

Can you name some people who you think should have been asked to do the review instead of Dr Cass and her team?

I know how I know I'm trans

Is it about everyone else's feelings?

I'm not going to name specific people, but the team should have included individuals with specialist subject knowledge expertise, as with any credible and well conducted review.

LOL no. It's exclusively about how I see my body.

I've now answered two of your questions. Will you answer mine?

How do all those trans kids know they are trans?

Actually, re-reading this I realise you misrepresented or misinterpreted what I said.

Ironically, I actually agree with the statement as you make it.

What everyone else feels is completely irrelevant to whether or not someone is trans. This is very much true because of course the trans person has no idea what everyone else truly feels.

Because trans identities are based, as I said in my initial comment, on what the trans person believes everyone else feels, not what they may actually feel.

And therefore, because the trrans person has no idea what everyone else truly feels, only what the trans person believes they feel, despite TRActivist's feverish demands there is simply no basis on which it is justified or appropriate to adjust the trans person's body to be "more like" that of the opposite sex, nor to allow them cross-sex privileges or privileged access to the opposite sex, simply because of what the trans person happens to believe about the opposite sex.

Because in reality, as you yourself agree, whatever it is they believe other people are feeling has nothing whatsoever to do with what those other people actually feel, and therefore it does not in any way justify treating the trans person as if they actually are closer to the opposite sex, in mind, feeling or body, than anyone else is.

So, like I said in the post you took exception to, trans people are not necessarily confused, but they are simply wrong in their beliefs about other people.

What sort of specialist subject knowledge? Paediatric psychiatry? Paediatric endocrinology? Or something else?

So you can't name any credible experts.
Now answer my question, what are the signs and symptoms of gender dysphoria?

There were no unbiassed experts in this field and no agreement within the field about what the "right questions" were. That was what Cass set out to do: to look at what questions had been asked and what answers there were. And to ensure that the questions that are fundamental to paediatric medicine were being asked and answered in this field too, and to remedy the exceptionalism and scorn for objectivity that had previously ruled much of the field.

I can understand why people who rely on subjectivity and exceptionalism to promote a medical field wouldn't like that. But that really is how quality care is maintained.