Help protect children from gaming harms.

Take our survey

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
Thread gallery
15
Catiette · 30/07/2026 16:26

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 10:54

You're asking me to provide evidence for the absence of an effect. I'd turn the question around: what is the evidence that encouraging someone to "come to terms with their sex" reliably resolves persistent gender dysphoria?

As far as I'm aware, there isn't a robust body of research demonstrating that it does. By contrast, the existence of adolescents and adults with persistent gender dysphoria is well documented in the literature.
Meanwhile, on the contrary, the existence of adolescents and adults with persistent gender dysphoria is well documented in the literature. That, by itself, is inconsistent with the suggestion that simply "coming to terms with one's sex" is a reliably effective solution for everyone.

Steensma TD et al. (2013). Factors Associated With Desistence and Persistence of Childhood Gender Dysphoria: A Quantitative Follow-Up Study. Journal of the American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry, 52(6), 582–590.

de Vries ALC et al. (2014). Young Adult Psychological Outcome After Puberty Suppression and Gender Reassignment. Pediatrics, 134(4), 696–704.

Olson KR et al. (2022). Gender Identity 5 Years After Social Transition. Pediatrics, 150(2).

what is the evidence that encouraging someone to "come to terms with their sex" reliably resolves persistent gender dysphoria? As far as I'm aware, there isn't a robust body of research demonstrating that it does. By contrast, the existence of adolescents and adults with persistent gender dysphoria is well documented in the literature.

My understanding is that there is, in fact, a strong body of research that indicates that, in cases of gender dysphoria in teens, watchful waiting results in about 70% resolving over time. This outlined by Abigail Schrier (a well-researched overview shortlisted for the Orwell Prize).

You may say that this isn't the cohort or treatment to which you were referring - that you meant "persistent" cases, undergoing active psychological intervention.

But this takes me back to my earlier posts on the distinction between the past standard - the cautious clinically-led diagnosis of gender dysphoria - and the current issue of society itself (schools, social workers, the media) pathologising fairly average pubertal anxiety (and the associated diagnostic overshadowing compounding this).

I don't think (although apologies if I've missed it) you've responded to these posts and issues yet. Busy thread, no rush: but curious.

Catiette · 30/07/2026 16:28

Catiette · 30/07/2026 01:16

I don’t see “less” as “utopian”. One’s a qualification, the other an extreme. And that’s my point, in a way. To use your own words to explain my viewpoint…

These diagnostic criteria used to be applied in a measured way in a clinical context (“less”).

They’re now being imposed quite indiscriminately on children in a significant proportion of schools (see the Barbie > GI Joe spectrum, or indeed m/any of the “child-friendly” representations of “gender-identity” by charities and in children’s literature) - as synonymous with “being yourself”, “joy”, “everyone” being “welcome” and pure uncomplicated “kindness” (does that perhaps sound a bit… utopian to you?!)

The proportionate (to incidence of dysphoria on a population level; to corresponding need; to balancing rights) has been overwhelmed by the disproportionate (the attempted wholesale redefinition of “man” and “woman” and effective abolition of sex); the measured (“less”) with the impossible and unreal-istic (dash intended) “Utopian”.

And because what’s being sought isn’t possible - never was, never will be - it’s distorting all kinds of things in the meantime: kids’ health - their very bodies!; women’s march towards equality; gay and lesbian rights to identify and meet as same-sex attracted… Even transsexuals are being negatively impacted in the inevitable backlash we’re now seeing, as society wakes up to the damaging imbalance weighing on it, and clumsily seeks to right itself (catastrophically, at a time when genuinely prejudiced, undemocratic attitudes are just waiting for excuses to flare).

Behind every utopia, a dystopia - or the risk thereof. Cf. Mao and Communism. New World Salem, even. Try too hard to pull necessary truths out of shape, and they spring back ever more violently. Social change needs to be possible in the first place (and also by gradual consensus in any case) to prevent or mitigate this.

I hope people don't mind me quoting myself - past posts can be hard to find.

The above was in response to Sunnibee's:

I don't believe that being trans/ gender dysphoria is something that is externally imposed/coerced. It's something that seems to come from within a person - there may be complex psychological, social, biological roots. Maybe if we lived in a less gendered society there would be no experience of gender incongruence, but that seems to me to be a somewhat utopian idea.

BackToLurk · 30/07/2026 16:32

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 16:24

That ‘thinking’ they are in the other category is a real experience. It’s not a choice, or something they have active control over.

In terms of whether it is appropriately characterised as a delusion - that’s a really complex and contested question, philosophically and scientifically. It raises really interesting and unanswerable questions about both sex development, and cognition, and how the brain processes and represents information about the body.

The way to fix this is to find out why there is this mind-body disconnect and help them to find a way forward from there.

I agree with you here. The medical questions are why and how to resolve. If we can’t resolve the disconnect, and it is causing acute distress, one simple way of thinking about it is - do we change the body to better align with the mind - or change the mind to align with the body?

It seems many users on this thread are assuming it has to be the latter. But changing the cognitive and psychological aspects of the mind is actually much harder and more complex than administering hormonal therapies, for example. We know how to induce hormonal changes very well - this can be done through administering medications. When it comes to aspects of how the brain/ cognition work/ mental processes work - we are so much more in the dark.

Edited

So we medicalise children because it is ‘easier’?

Shortshriftandlethal · 30/07/2026 16:35

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 15:50

There’s a difference between describing a condition and expressing an opinion about how society should respond to it.

The fact that someone experiences distress because of their body/ social role doesn’t by itself, tell us what accommodations society should or shouldn't make. That's a separate ethical and political question.

My point has been much narrower. Earlier people asked what the social role aspect of gender dysphoria meant if it wasn’t based on “stereotypes”. My answer was that it refers to anything that derives from the social recognition of the categories “male” and “female” (names, pronouns, toilets, etc.).

Those categories are real and socially significant, so it's unsurprising that someone who persistently experiences themselves as belonging in the other category experiences distress in social as well as bodily contexts.

You may conclude that society should make very few accommodations, or none. Someone else may conclude the opposite. But neither position changes what gender dysphoria is. Before we decide if and how society should accommodate people with this condition, it’s really important to understand and clarify what it actually is.

It is not just one condition though is it?.it represents a constellation of different feeling states and discomforts. We cannot always expect society to bend and to accommodate our different feelings about ourselves, we need to learn to accept and adapt ourselves to society too, or make some measure of peace with it.

We all have feelings of discomfort or even distress about some or other things we come across in life, and we largely have to find a way of resolving those difficulties ourselves by finding a means to tolerate, or to modify our attitude or response. So, just because 'society' makes generalised comments, or has certain ingrained expectations about our 'sex category' we have to learn not to take things overly personally if we don't feel these expectations or representations reflect our personal experience of ourselves.

We live in a society in which we are largely free to express ourselves through different kinds of life or personal choices - so just because sex based stereotypes still exist ( and probably always will) it doesn't mean we are compelled to conform with them.

Shortshriftandlethal · 30/07/2026 16:39

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 15:42

I think we're talking past each other a bit.

When I say someone "feels they are in the wrong sexed category", I'm describing the experience of gender dysphoria, not endorsing a particular belief about sex or making a claim about treatment.

By "sexed category" I simply mean the social categories of male or female. Society distinguishes between these categories in lots of ways—names, pronouns, toilets, changing rooms, sports, official documents, and so on. Whether each distinction is justified and how we should organise society around sexed categories are separate questions.

I was simply trying to explain what gender dysphoria is - it is the persistent distress associated with one's sexed body and the social category that goes with it. That's why simply saying "your category is male, get over it" doesn't address what gender dysphoria actually is.

You may think the appropriate treatment is psychological rather than medical, and that's a legitimate topic for discussion. But that's a different question from whether the experience itself exists or what people mean when they describe its social aspect.

Male and female are not social categories, they are biological categories and the best outcome is to recognise and accept that, whilst realising it doesn't say anything else about your personality, feelings or preferences. So what if we use 'She' or female and 'He' for males. They are just corresponding word categories. Too much navel gazing to the extent you cannot cope with sex based pronouns is not a good place to be, or to remain.

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 16:39

BackToLurk · 30/07/2026 16:32

So we medicalise children because it is ‘easier’?

The point isn't that one approach is "easier"; it's that it's something we currently know how to do within the framework of current scientific knowledge and technologies
.
The real question is how best to help someone suffering from gender dysphoria. Physical interventions carry risks, but so does leaving persistent gender dysphoria untreated and allowing someone to live with ongoing distress. Those risks have to be weighed against one another.

Psychological support is important and should be available. The difficulty is that we don't currently have a psychological or cognitive therapy that has been shown to reliably resolve gender dysphoria itself. For some people it does lessen or resolve over time, but for others it persists despite psychological support. That's why the question of treatment is more complex than simply saying people should learn to accept their bodies.

AimsAndObjectives · 30/07/2026 16:43

FlirtsWithRhinos · 30/07/2026 11:26

The phrase "believes he's a woman" already assumes that the person's experience is merely a mistaken belief rather than a complex psychological phenomenon.

They are the same thing.

THEY ARE THE SAME THING.

Either 1:
He is a woman, which means there is really, in an objectively measureable way, something in him that is also present in all other women and all other trans women but not in men or trans men AND society has decided that this "thing" is the true source of womanhood rather than a female body,

or 2:
He is not a woman but very sincerely believes himself to be.

If the latter is true, then this is a delusion. The reason for it does not change that. It does not become any more true because there is a (hypothetical) organic reason he believes this rather than a social one.

If there were to be a complex psychological phenomenon that caused humans to believe they could fly, this would stil be a deluiosn. They would not in any way be more able to fly than someone who merely has a mistaken belief.

Hey @Sunnibee , I see that you have not been brave enough to answer this post. @FlirtsWithRhinos is one of the most respected posters on FWR and is asking some of the most fundamental questions that you need to grapple with, if you want to be taken seriously.

Shortshriftandlethal · 30/07/2026 16:48

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 16:39

The point isn't that one approach is "easier"; it's that it's something we currently know how to do within the framework of current scientific knowledge and technologies
.
The real question is how best to help someone suffering from gender dysphoria. Physical interventions carry risks, but so does leaving persistent gender dysphoria untreated and allowing someone to live with ongoing distress. Those risks have to be weighed against one another.

Psychological support is important and should be available. The difficulty is that we don't currently have a psychological or cognitive therapy that has been shown to reliably resolve gender dysphoria itself. For some people it does lessen or resolve over time, but for others it persists despite psychological support. That's why the question of treatment is more complex than simply saying people should learn to accept their bodies.

I've already outlined the approach I think a thoughtful therapist should take when dealing with someone who reports 'gender distress'. It shouldn't begin with an unquestioning acceptance of that framework; it should involve a more holistic approach which allows the distress to be both acknowledged and contained and then worked with, and then hopefully resolved to a greater or lesser extent in the long run. You cannot heal 'gender distress' by confining it within gender.

Catiette · 30/07/2026 16:52

I don't think anyone has suggested removing sex categories (unless you did).

Sunnibee did suggest something akin to removing gendered roles in response to one of my posts, appearing to think that I, or GC feminists, describing a "less gendered" world as an impossible "utopian" ideal (paraphrased). In my following post, I questioned the conflation of "less" and "utopian" - it did seem to imply total removal - and explained what I'd meant. I posted this response again just now, and am currently catching up with most of the thread so I'm on top by the time I get to any reply from Sunnibee.

BackToLurk · 30/07/2026 16:56

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 16:39

The point isn't that one approach is "easier"; it's that it's something we currently know how to do within the framework of current scientific knowledge and technologies
.
The real question is how best to help someone suffering from gender dysphoria. Physical interventions carry risks, but so does leaving persistent gender dysphoria untreated and allowing someone to live with ongoing distress. Those risks have to be weighed against one another.

Psychological support is important and should be available. The difficulty is that we don't currently have a psychological or cognitive therapy that has been shown to reliably resolve gender dysphoria itself. For some people it does lessen or resolve over time, but for others it persists despite psychological support. That's why the question of treatment is more complex than simply saying people should learn to accept their bodies.

The point isn’t that one approach is easier.

That’s precisely what you said “But changing the cognitive and psychological aspects of the mind is actually much harder and more complex than administering hormonal therapies, for example.”.

You’ve also persistently, presumably deliberately, conflated the treatment of adults and the treatment of children. You haven’t shown any objective way of determining which children have a form of gender dysphoria that would benefit from the use of puberty blockers, that would be comparable to the way their appropriateness is determined for children without dysphoria.

You’ve also ignored the fact, recorded in a previous review, that some of those children placed on the pathway you keep defending, have no diagnosis of GD.

Fidgetbreak · 30/07/2026 16:56

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 16:24

That ‘thinking’ they are in the other category is a real experience. It’s not a choice, or something they have active control over.

In terms of whether it is appropriately characterised as a delusion - that’s a really complex and contested question, philosophically and scientifically. It raises really interesting and unanswerable questions about both sex development, and cognition, and how the brain processes and represents information about the body.

The way to fix this is to find out why there is this mind-body disconnect and help them to find a way forward from there.

I agree with you here. The medical questions are why and how to resolve. If we can’t resolve the disconnect, and it is causing acute distress, one simple way of thinking about it is - do we change the body to better align with the mind - or change the mind to align with the body?

It seems many users on this thread are assuming it has to be the latter. But changing the cognitive and psychological aspects of the mind is actually much harder and more complex than administering hormonal therapies, for example. We know how to induce hormonal changes very well - this can be done through administering medications. When it comes to aspects of how the brain/ cognition work/ mental processes work - we are so much more in the dark.

Edited

The issue with choosing medical transition as a solution is that it will be an exercise in futility for most.

No matter how well a transwoman passes they still won't be allowed to compete in women's sports, they won't be eligible for women only jobs, they still won't be able to get pregnant.

The distress will continue. Especially if expectations have not been managed.

A one fits all treatment is not appropriate.

Have you considered there may be more approaches that can be trialed and researched? Such as therapy. Would you be in favour of that?

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 16:59

Seethlaw · 30/07/2026 14:35

That didn't really answer my question, but either way -

Ah, sorry. I didn't understand it then. Can you maybe try to re-formulate it?

I think you're assuming that other trans people are motivated differently from you, but you haven't really established that. Why assume that your motivations are unique, or that other people necessarily have less realistic expectations?

I doubt my motivations are unique! In fact, I would be surprised if I were the only one of my type of trans people.

As for expectations, however: I've listened to a lot of trans people, both online and offline, and way too many of them expressed unrealistic expectations.

Moreover, when it comes to the Dutch Protocol, those extremely high expectations are the entire point of the treatment. Getting kids on puberty blockers is to stop them developing the sexual traits of their own sex so they will pass better once they go onto cross-sex hormones. That has been the entire goal of the protocol all along. So the sky high expectations are baked into the treatment for so-called trans kids.

In terms of not answer my question, it doesn't especially matter but it was just that when I looked at your list, the 'benefit' - "likes their body a little better - maybe" seemed so trivial compared to the harms you listed (even just those applying to adults). Even if you goals for treatment are personally realistic and achievable, these same harms remain, so I was thinking that surely there must have been something that wasn't coming across in the 'benefits' pile, that goes beyond 'likes body a little better, maybe'?

In terms of expectations, I think you're right that some trans people may have unrealistic expectations of what medical interventions can achieve. However, I think there's a tension in your argument.

On the one hand, you argue that expectations of being able to "pass" are often unrealistic. But that is, at least in part, a consequence of having undergone endogenous puberty - especially those going through male puberty who wish to pass as female. One of the principal arguments for offering puberty blockers or other early interventions is precisely that they may reduce the development of secondary sex characteristics that can later make those goals much harder to achieve.

So if the argument is that treatment should be denied because the outcomes are unlikely to meet patients' expectations, it's worth recognising that those poorer outcomes may themselves result from delaying treatment until after puberty. That creates a circular line of reasoning: delaying treatment contributes to the very limitations then cited as a reason not to provide it.

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 17:08

Catiette · 30/07/2026 16:26

what is the evidence that encouraging someone to "come to terms with their sex" reliably resolves persistent gender dysphoria? As far as I'm aware, there isn't a robust body of research demonstrating that it does. By contrast, the existence of adolescents and adults with persistent gender dysphoria is well documented in the literature.

My understanding is that there is, in fact, a strong body of research that indicates that, in cases of gender dysphoria in teens, watchful waiting results in about 70% resolving over time. This outlined by Abigail Schrier (a well-researched overview shortlisted for the Orwell Prize).

You may say that this isn't the cohort or treatment to which you were referring - that you meant "persistent" cases, undergoing active psychological intervention.

But this takes me back to my earlier posts on the distinction between the past standard - the cautious clinically-led diagnosis of gender dysphoria - and the current issue of society itself (schools, social workers, the media) pathologising fairly average pubertal anxiety (and the associated diagnostic overshadowing compounding this).

I don't think (although apologies if I've missed it) you've responded to these posts and issues yet. Busy thread, no rush: but curious.

If your concern is that some young people experiencing fairly typical pubertal anxiety or other psychological difficulties are being misidentified as having gender dysphoria, then I agree that is a legitimate concern. Careful assessment is essential precisely because misdiagnosis can occur.

I also accept that some people later regret treatment or conclude that transition was not right for them. Those experiences matter and should inform clinical practice. But they don't demonstrate that gender dysphoria is simply ordinary pubertal anxiety, or that everyone presenting with it has been misdiagnosed.

I don't personally share the view that gender dysphoria is routinely being diagnosed inappropriately on a large scale. I do think there has been a cultural shift, with more young people questioning and exploring their gender in diverse ways. But questioning one's gender is not the same thing as having persistent gender dysphoria, and it does not automatically lead to medical intervention.

The challenge is distinguishing as accurately as possible between young people whose distress reflects broader developmental or psychological difficulties and those with persistent gender dysphoria, rather than assuming they all belong in the same category.

Catiette · 30/07/2026 17:12

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 16:59

In terms of not answer my question, it doesn't especially matter but it was just that when I looked at your list, the 'benefit' - "likes their body a little better - maybe" seemed so trivial compared to the harms you listed (even just those applying to adults). Even if you goals for treatment are personally realistic and achievable, these same harms remain, so I was thinking that surely there must have been something that wasn't coming across in the 'benefits' pile, that goes beyond 'likes body a little better, maybe'?

In terms of expectations, I think you're right that some trans people may have unrealistic expectations of what medical interventions can achieve. However, I think there's a tension in your argument.

On the one hand, you argue that expectations of being able to "pass" are often unrealistic. But that is, at least in part, a consequence of having undergone endogenous puberty - especially those going through male puberty who wish to pass as female. One of the principal arguments for offering puberty blockers or other early interventions is precisely that they may reduce the development of secondary sex characteristics that can later make those goals much harder to achieve.

So if the argument is that treatment should be denied because the outcomes are unlikely to meet patients' expectations, it's worth recognising that those poorer outcomes may themselves result from delaying treatment until after puberty. That creates a circular line of reasoning: delaying treatment contributes to the very limitations then cited as a reason not to provide it.

I think the same may be said of the opposite approach, in the current context of affirmation (and including social affirmation as a form of clinical intervention,as Cass suggests):

administering treatment may contribute to the very issues cited as a reason not to provide it

Ultimately, if the treatment is to affirm, to the extent that's now commonly accepted (trans women ARE* *women), as a way to alleviate significant clinical distress, the outcome of the treatment can only ever be uncertain: except in the vanishingly few cases of someone passing perfectly, it will always rely on uncontrollable external factors - how others respond to the trans person.

Hence the oppressive, authoritarian pressure on society to affirm at all costs - including substantial costs to other groups.

My understanding is that a condition of medical transitioning in the past was accepting that sex-change isn't possible to mitigate this, as well as greater clinical oversight.

In losing these precautions, it feels as though we're risking creating or compounding dysphoria and associated clinical levels of distress.

AimsAndObjectives · 30/07/2026 17:16

UK society has already more-or-less decided how to accomodate trans-identified people.

Names: chose anything sensible

Pronouns: Some people may use them out of 'kindness' or to avoid confrontation, but compelled speech is not acceptable in a democracy. There may be some workplaces which will try to enforce them, but it will proabaly end in tears and cannot possibly be mandated in everyday unregulated interactions.

Toilets etc: gender neutral options and transpeople-specific options are being offered where possible. Everything set aside for women as a sex-class will mean observed-at-birth women. Woman will continue to mean adult, human female and man, adult human male. Some people may be willing to accommodate the terms transwoman and transman.

'Passing', if ever truly possible, will mean living a life where every meaningful encounter will involve wondering if you are being 'clocked' and where every sexual interaction will involve revealing one's transgender status. Many, many people will never accept that 'passing' should allow you to access facilities meant for the opposite sex, whether you went through the puberty meant for your sex or not.

Anyone who proposes to 'transition' in any way needs to be told by clinicians that this is the reality of the world in which they will be living, and to take that into account when making their decisions.

All this needs to be weighed in any consideration of the benefits and harms of a medical as opposed to a psychological treatment pathway.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 30/07/2026 17:18

Fidgetbreak · 30/07/2026 16:56

The issue with choosing medical transition as a solution is that it will be an exercise in futility for most.

No matter how well a transwoman passes they still won't be allowed to compete in women's sports, they won't be eligible for women only jobs, they still won't be able to get pregnant.

The distress will continue. Especially if expectations have not been managed.

A one fits all treatment is not appropriate.

Have you considered there may be more approaches that can be trialed and researched? Such as therapy. Would you be in favour of that?

I think this is so important.

The medicalisation cannot deliver the relief suggested.

Perhaps, perhaps accomodating the medicalised person as if we truly believe they are the opposite sex in all things would ... but then we run up against that annoying question of how far are we prepared to utilise women and to ignore the reasons places are single sex in the first place to support sad men?

The only reason that the "distress" of gender dysphoria is treated different to the distress of, oh let's say losing a loved one and believing you hear their voice every day, is that a still often very sexist society falsely believes that a man with surgery "might as well be" a woman, and the medical establishment has falsely believed it was good enough, or actually not quite good enough but defintely just about to make the discovery that would make it good enough, to change someone's sex.

And all this based on a "maybe" belief that there "might" be a "complex psychological" cause for gender dysphoria yet to be discovered, while happily ignoring the totally obvious point that this still doesn't actually make that person in reality any more like the opposite sex than anyone else.

And while we are counting how many complex psychological causes might be able to dance on the head of a pin and wringing our hands over whether we might somehow be being unfair to a gender dysphoric person for reasons we will only later learn, we are apparently 100% a-ok to continue to impose known harms and cause known distess to women to mitigate that "maybe" risk of regret.

It really is quite disgusting how little even women seem to value women sometimes, when their attention is being diverted to someone who really really needs that extra help.

Catiette · 30/07/2026 17:25

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 17:08

If your concern is that some young people experiencing fairly typical pubertal anxiety or other psychological difficulties are being misidentified as having gender dysphoria, then I agree that is a legitimate concern. Careful assessment is essential precisely because misdiagnosis can occur.

I also accept that some people later regret treatment or conclude that transition was not right for them. Those experiences matter and should inform clinical practice. But they don't demonstrate that gender dysphoria is simply ordinary pubertal anxiety, or that everyone presenting with it has been misdiagnosed.

I don't personally share the view that gender dysphoria is routinely being diagnosed inappropriately on a large scale. I do think there has been a cultural shift, with more young people questioning and exploring their gender in diverse ways. But questioning one's gender is not the same thing as having persistent gender dysphoria, and it does not automatically lead to medical intervention.

The challenge is distinguishing as accurately as possible between young people whose distress reflects broader developmental or psychological difficulties and those with persistent gender dysphoria, rather than assuming they all belong in the same category.

As with my earlier posts, you draw some surprisingly absolutist conclusions from what I hope are rather more cautious arguments.

I'm not saying any of the below in bold (my underlining), and I do think this is clear, or at least, I hope, implied, in my posts.

This means you don't engage quite fully with the issues actually being raised.

But they don't demonstrate that gender dysphoria is simply ordinary pubertal anxiety, or that everyone presenting with it has been misdiagnosed.

Self-evidently. I acknowledge this. What I'm questioning is the societal biases meaning ordinary anxiety can be misdiagnosed, and cited evidence (Schrier) that it is being.

it does not automatically lead to medical intervention.

Self-evidently.

rather than assuming they all belong in the same category.

Exactly! I talk of subtle distinctions - cultural idiosyncrasies and the associated potential for quite genuine pathologies to be in part socially constructed, with the consequent potential for there to be some kind of symbiosis between (formal or informal) diagnosis and presentation.

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 17:26

Catiette · 30/07/2026 16:28

I hope people don't mind me quoting myself - past posts can be hard to find.

The above was in response to Sunnibee's:

I don't believe that being trans/ gender dysphoria is something that is externally imposed/coerced. It's something that seems to come from within a person - there may be complex psychological, social, biological roots. Maybe if we lived in a less gendered society there would be no experience of gender incongruence, but that seems to me to be a somewhat utopian idea.

Yes you are right, my language was really clumsy here. it was late at night and I was starting to ramble 😅.

I've tried to clarify what I've meant more precisely since.

I think the problem is that people understand 'gender'/ social gender categories/ roles as being reducible in a simple way to 'stereotypes'.
The reasoning then becomes: if someone experiences a gender that does not align with their sex, that must be because they have internalised mistaken stereotypes about what it means to be male or female. From that perspective, the solution is to challenge those stereotypes and change society so they no longer exist.

I wanted to acknowledge that there is a certain logic to the idea that, if we lived in a world without socially meaningful categories of male and female, then the experience of being in the "wrong" one might also disappear.

The difficulty is that this strikes me as utopian. We can and should challenge harmful stereotypes and reduce the extent to which people are constrained by gendered expectations. But I don't think we can eliminate the social significance of the categories themselves. They are not only collections of stereotypes; they are rooted in real biological differences that have social consequences. We can reject the idea that women should do the cooking, for example, but it seems much harder to imagine a society in which being male or female carries no social meaning whatsoever.

Indeed, if anything, current developments appear to be moving in the opposite direction. The EHRC guidance, for example, places renewed emphasis on recognising sex-based categories and organising some aspects of society around them.

Categories of male and female therefore remain socially meaningful. So too does the experience, for a minority of people, of profound distress at being somehow in the 'wrong' one - physically and socially. That is the phenomenon referred to as gender dysphoria.

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 17:28

Catiette · 30/07/2026 17:25

As with my earlier posts, you draw some surprisingly absolutist conclusions from what I hope are rather more cautious arguments.

I'm not saying any of the below in bold (my underlining), and I do think this is clear, or at least, I hope, implied, in my posts.

This means you don't engage quite fully with the issues actually being raised.

But they don't demonstrate that gender dysphoria is simply ordinary pubertal anxiety, or that everyone presenting with it has been misdiagnosed.

Self-evidently. I acknowledge this. What I'm questioning is the societal biases meaning ordinary anxiety can be misdiagnosed, and cited evidence (Schrier) that it is being.

it does not automatically lead to medical intervention.

Self-evidently.

rather than assuming they all belong in the same category.

Exactly! I talk of subtle distinctions - cultural idiosyncrasies and the associated potential for quite genuine pathologies to be in part socially constructed, with the consequent potential for there to be some kind of symbiosis between (formal or informal) diagnosis and presentation.

I think we agree to be honest, although I think you are worried about something I'm not - which is widespread mis/ over diagnosis of gender dysphoria and an overly interventionist approach. In terms of the latter point, I think the current balance is way in the other direction.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 30/07/2026 17:31

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 13:51

I don't find Cass's arguments compelling and I don't think she has the relevant expertise or experience to serious engage on this issue.

I don't find Cass's arguments compelling and I don't think she has the relevant expertise or experience to serious engage on this issue.

I don't find your arguments compelling and I don't think you have the relevant expertise or experience to seriously engage on this issue. You are not a clinician of any sort let alone a past-president of the Royal College of Paediatrics.

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 17:34

PrettyDamnCosmic · 30/07/2026 17:31

I don't find Cass's arguments compelling and I don't think she has the relevant expertise or experience to serious engage on this issue.

I don't find your arguments compelling and I don't think you have the relevant expertise or experience to seriously engage on this issue. You are not a clinician of any sort let alone a past-president of the Royal College of Paediatrics.

That is entirely your prerogative of course . I shan't presume or indeed try to persuade you otherwise 😅

PrettyDamnCosmic · 30/07/2026 17:34

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 14:02

As above, she's a senior paediatrician, and I don't doubt her expertise within general paediatrics. However, she does not have specialist expertise in this area of clinical care/ practice. She's is no more qualified to speak especially authoratively on this than on paediatric oncology, or neurosurgery or any other specialist area of care.

She's is no more qualified to speak especially authoratively on this than on paediatric oncology, or neurosurgery or any other specialist area of care.are prep

You on the other hand although totally unqualified are prepared to contradict the findings of her report. I know which opinion carries more weight (hint - it's not yours).

PrettyDamnCosmic · 30/07/2026 17:36

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 14:05

Whether sex is immutable is a separate question from how we understand the psychological experience of gender dysphoria. I don't think many clinicians would describe trans people as believing they literally have a "gendered soul", and I don't think that reflects how most trans people describe their own experiences either.

You also seem to assume that gender incongruence can only arise from confusion or from internalising sex stereotypes. I don't think that follows. It is a complex psychological phenomenon, and I would be cautious about reducing it to a single explanation that may not reflect people's actual experiences.

You have a strong opinion on this subject which you are presenting as factual. You insist that trans people are confused. My question was and is - have you ever stopped to reflect on whether your own interpretation of these issues may be confused?

You have a strong opinion on this subject which you are presenting as factual. You insist that trans people are confused. My question was and is - have you ever stopped to reflect on whether your own interpretation of these issues may be confused?

You have a strong opinion on this subject which you are presenting as factual. My question was and is - have you ever stopped to reflect on whether your own interpretation of these issues may be confused?

OldCrone · 30/07/2026 17:37

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 17:28

I think we agree to be honest, although I think you are worried about something I'm not - which is widespread mis/ over diagnosis of gender dysphoria and an overly interventionist approach. In terms of the latter point, I think the current balance is way in the other direction.

About 80% of children who have gender dysphoria desist post puberty if left alone. And you think we need a more interventionist approach to, I presume, medicate more of these children who would desist if left alone?

Please tell me I've misunderstood your post.

Sunnibee · 30/07/2026 17:38

PrettyDamnCosmic · 30/07/2026 17:36

You have a strong opinion on this subject which you are presenting as factual. You insist that trans people are confused. My question was and is - have you ever stopped to reflect on whether your own interpretation of these issues may be confused?

You have a strong opinion on this subject which you are presenting as factual. My question was and is - have you ever stopped to reflect on whether your own interpretation of these issues may be confused?

have you ever stopped to reflect on whether your own interpretation of these issues may be confused?

Absolutely all the time :)

Swipe left for the next trending thread