Scared of gender neutral bathrooms

[toilettalking]

Hi everyone,

I hope this is the right place to post this.

I have recently seen the news about the change to single sex spaces coming in on the 5th August in relation to toilets etc and I am terrified.

I have been sexually assaulted by a man (in case it was relevant this was not a transgender person) in a gender neutral toilet. It was horrific and I will now avoid at all costs using a gender neutral bathroom unless I am with my boyfriend and he can come and almost stand guard.

I’m really concerned that in light of this new guidance a lot of places may introduce these mixed sex gender neutral toilets as a way of avoiding any headache or potential issue with the new guidance.

I’m just wondering if anyone has any more idea on this than I do and knows if this is likely or not?

I’m so worried that public toilets or even changing rooms are going to become inaccessible to me.

As an aside, I understand that now it will be completely based on biological sex. Due to the above, I’d be absolutely terrified to be in a toilet with someone who was biologically female but presented as very male (eg deep voice, beard etc etc). Does anyone know if this is likely to become common or do you think people who seem to present such a way will continue to use men’s toilets?

I hope this is the right place for support and guidance, many thanks!

I’m sorry that happened to you. Public toilets are less and less common of course in the UK which gives their own problems as true public toilets aren’t maintained well. Perhaps best to stick to well lit, well maintained toilet provision in busy areas and perhaps you will feel safer. In general women’s toilets are busier because there are fewer resources for women, so that may help. Most transmen are very obviously female so it shouldn’t be too much of an issue.

The assault actually happened in a toilet in a bar, so not a true public toilet in that sense.

thank you for your words, it is very difficult to navigate

As an aside, I understand that now it will be completely based on biological sex. Due to the above, I’d be absolutely terrified to be in a toilet with someone who was biologically female but presented as very male (eg deep voice, beard etc etc). Does anyone know if this is likely to become common or do you think people who seem to present such a way will continue to use men’s toilets?

Really?

Yes of course where men are more likely to be drunk or high the risk is greater. I think if your favourite places save money by choosing to move to mixed sex toilets, complain.

Hi, not sure of your question here. As in, would I really be scared of someone who seemed at first glance to be a man? Yes I would. Or, is it really likely to happen? I don’t know that’s why I’m asking!

I have come on here for some support/advice really so not sure of your question

I am I the only one that certainly isn't going to reassure the OP that transmen will/should use the mens?

There are other websites that would love to see MumsNet recommend transmen use the mens so they can use this to justify transwomen in the ladies.

thank you, I’m hoping that it won’t happen everywhere but I will think about complaining if my usual spots go down this route as it would genuinely stop me from going there

Hello, I’m not looking for assurance this will happen, more of it people think it’s likely or not, if that makes sense.

In any event, whilst I likely would find this shocking or it would give me an immediate panic that would subside, it’s not really the main point of my post re completely neutral toilets

Yes. It’s definitely indirect sex discrimination in many cases if they do imo. About half of all women over 35 have some form of incontinence, and I think if anything transmen who have transitioned medically will suffer more in that way. Women care more about safe toilet provision than men and need it more.

The SC actually ruled that it's OK to exclude 'passing' transmen from the ladies.

I agree that gender neutral spaces are less safe and would hate to see them replace single sex spaces but would welcome that as additional spaces if in suitable, safer locations.

🤔

Hi OP!

In case you're genuine: you're posting right after a volley of non-genuine "concerned" posts and threads have been made, and you're mentioning a very classic "concerned" topic ("what about transmen?") So don't take any suspicion personally.

Regarding transmen: I would suggest you familiarise yourself with all the tells of a transman: height, gait, length of limbs, size of hands and feet, shape of face and body, lack of Adam's apple, and so on. And even behaviour: a transman among women is more likely to revert to an accommodating attitude than a man would be. Once you learn how to spot a transman almost instantly, there'll be extremely few cases, if any, where you won't be able to recognise one when you see one, and thus be at ease around them.

The SC judgement acknowledges that no one should be disadvantaged by toilet provision. This includes trans people, who may prefer gender neutral loos, but also women, whose protected characteristic of sex means they're potentially more disadvantaged than men by the provision of gender neutral loos only. This offers protection to both you and to trans people.

There's a great deal of scaremongering right now which disregards this, and this is being exploited by activists. It's not at all uncommon to have people coming here and hypothesising that women will be worse off for having confirmed their rights in law in the face of these being ignored and undermined for so many years. It's an utterly despicable tactic, and the lack of respect and care it shows for women like yourself goes a long way to confirming the vital importance of the judgement to us.

In the meantime, on a practical level (although I know this isn't agreed by all here), I'd suggest using the disabled - you are, after all, disabled by your trauma. This, too, helps to highlight the importance of the recent judgement, of course, and the absurdity of anyone who would argue for entirely mixed-sex provision: there are far more women in your position than there are trans people who may prefer the disabled in the face of single sex only.

And this is why single sex will remain the norm - never fear. It was always there for a good reason, and that reason hasn't gone away. The evidence base is huge, and your fearful post here sadly contributes to it.

Look after yourself.

Disabled toilets are generally single, self contained units.

If a previous experience has left you in a position where anxiety prevents you from being able to use the non disabled toilets in a particular venue then I’d suggest that that is a very valid reason to use the disabled toilet at that venue. You have an additional need that isn’t met in the standard one.

First off I just want to say I'm really sorry you were assaulted by a man, that's really awful

In specifically marked multi-person mixed sex toilets you are likely to encounter people of both sexes.

If I were you, where possible, I'd aim to only go to places where there is clear single sex toilets for women.

Trans identified females who feel they pass sufficiently are less likely to be there, as it seems they quite often seek out single occupant or neutral toilets and have apps to help them achieve that. I think it's really considerate of the trans identified females who do this, and I suspect it's because they are very considerate of other how some women like you, may have an immediate reaction due to prior experiences, even if it becomes apparent really very quickly that they are actually female.

In places where there should be and has no reason not to have male and female single sex toilets, or had previously had male and female single sex toilets, but the female single sex toilets were at some point changed to be mixed sex, there is the likely hood of indirect or direct discrimination AFAIK.

Hello, thank you for your kind words and reassurances. I fully agree that an additional gender neutral loo is great and supports everyone, I just don’t want it to be the only option! I appreciate that I obviously just read the news article and then panicked, so there may be more nuance here. I appreciate the suggestion re the disabled loo, I think if the option was neutral mixed cubicles or single disabled toilet I probably would use the disabled.

Its sad really that I feel safer in these scenarios with my boyfriend, I wish that in the 21st century that wasn’t the case!

thank you again for the kind words of advice, I really appreciate it

Someone else has suggested this, and I had always previously thought “well I’m not disabled it’s not for me” etc but I now see that perhaps this is too blinkered of a view. I will do this going forward if it is the only “safe” (to me) toilet to use, thank you

It might be worthwhile to stick around and read some threads in the board @toilettalking

If you do a search here on the terms transman and trans identified female, you might find that helps a bit to ease your mind.

What are you on about OP? There will be no difference whatsoever in which facilities what you refer to as male-presenting females use. None. They will use whatever they currently use.

Im not sure what changes you think are going to be made wholesale next month. The law hasn’t changed, it’s been clarified. Mixed sex facilities need to be entirely self contained, including a sink. You won’t find yourself in a toilet with a male.

Hello, I can assure you my experiences are very genuine. I’m not familiar with this forum to have seen other posts, I just assumed this was the right place to come for advice based on the title of the forum to be honest!

As mentioned briefly above, I think I’d be scared briefly, just from the initial ‘oh god there’s a man in here’ but perhaps would then realise and calm down. This perhaps isn’t my main issue, rather the potential for everywhere to wash their hands of it and go “well if it’s all mixed sex we don’t have to do anything!” which would be really difficult for me

Hello, I’ve been in many places that have only “gender neutral” bathrooms which are mixed cubicles and sinks etc. I’m not sure therefore if these were illegal as you suggest, but I have certainly been in many! Especially in places like Manchester or London etc, it seems quite common to just have one big mixed sex loo area

It might help to reframe it from ‘safe’ to ‘suitable’.

People should use the facilities that are suitable for them. If you have an underlying mental health issues that makes some unsuitable then that’s a disability and if the disabled toilet features make that one suitable for you then that’s a fairly straightforward solution.

It’s difficult to realise the breadth of applicability of the term disabled and the variation that came comes with it. A lot of people assume it only applies to other people, or struggle to accept that they have additional needs in some circumstances.

Have you met any transmen? They tend to be hairy, sure, which can mislead you for a moment. But their stature, frame, hand and wrist size, gait are all clearly female. I honestly think after a quick second glance you'd feel ok.

I'm glad it was helpful. Do note, I also highlighted that single sex is gong to remain the default (and that I understand that there's legal recourse if there ever were to be any issue in this respect). The suggestion that it won't is such cruel scaremongering, and your post reinforces this.

I’m very sorry that you had this experience, it’s dreadful.

Gender neutral toilets are stand alone rooms - ie not cubicles with lockable doors and do not open onto corridors. Does this describe where you were assaulted ?