Scared of gender neutral bathrooms

[toilettalking]

Hi everyone,

I hope this is the right place to post this.

I have recently seen the news about the change to single sex spaces coming in on the 5th August in relation to toilets etc and I am terrified.

I have been sexually assaulted by a man (in case it was relevant this was not a transgender person) in a gender neutral toilet. It was horrific and I will now avoid at all costs using a gender neutral bathroom unless I am with my boyfriend and he can come and almost stand guard.

I’m really concerned that in light of this new guidance a lot of places may introduce these mixed sex gender neutral toilets as a way of avoiding any headache or potential issue with the new guidance.

I’m just wondering if anyone has any more idea on this than I do and knows if this is likely or not?

I’m so worried that public toilets or even changing rooms are going to become inaccessible to me.

As an aside, I understand that now it will be completely based on biological sex. Due to the above, I’d be absolutely terrified to be in a toilet with someone who was biologically female but presented as very male (eg deep voice, beard etc etc). Does anyone know if this is likely to become common or do you think people who seem to present such a way will continue to use men’s toilets?

I hope this is the right place for support and guidance, many thanks!

Definitely not worried. Just fed up. The same questions over and over again just because someone, back in the day, decided not to say "NO" to a bunch of useless, toddler-identifying men with no lives. I want to go back to 2005, uninvent smart phones, and pass a law that all politicians everywhere would be required to say "NO" to men at least three times every day.

And I want the schools to go back tomorrow.

<grump>

Id maybe do this if I had to! I would try and go with a friend etc where possible but obviously sometimes this isn’t possible. I appreciated the other suggestion of using the disabled if I did encounter a similar issue when out alone

Hello, I’m not super sure what “gotcha” I would have here but I’m sorry you view my post in this way. I also haven’t seen the other post you refer to.

i have found mumsnet to be a place to get support for lots of different things in life, so this is all I’m trying to do here! I’m not trying to start any kind of debate or “gotcha” as you suggest, I just wanted advice on how to live my life safely and happily in a sometimes confusing world.

I’m not sure why I’m being slightly jumped on for seeking such advice, but nevertheless I have had some helpful comments too which I am grateful for

True unisex toilets should be fully self contained with a full length door straight onto the main corridor or room - disabled toilets are generally compliant in this way and several of our local pubs have them. Use these if you are concerned about being in confined space with others

I have recently seen the news about the change to single sex spaces coming in on the 5th August in relation to toilets etc and I am terrified.

It's not really clear why you think the implementation of the guidance would mean that you are more likely to meet somebody with a beard and a deep voice in the ladies' loos.

Before the current guidance some men with deep voices and beards believed they had the right to use whichever toilet they preferred.

Now, assuming that everyone follows the updated guidance, you may meet somebody with facial hair and a deep voice in the women's toilet, but they will be female.

On the other hand if your concern is that people won't follow the rules, then there is no reason to think updating the guidance would have any impact either way.

I've been in toilets like this too. My daughter's university has them - there are cubicles on the left and sinks on the right. I only went in there once and I did feel quite uncomfortable to be honest, although I've never been assaulted - so I can sympathise with your fears.

I think there are also single sex facilities in the building, but I was desperate for the loo at the time and didn't know where the single sex ones were!

Sorry this happened to you. I know what you mean about mixed sex toilets, I’ve been to several bars in Manchester that have mixed sex toilet facilities in the basement and I find it very intimidating to go down there if there’s nobody else around (not so much when it’s busy) I don’t think they’re safe at all.

I honestly think trans identifying females who look male are more likely to use men’s bathrooms anyway (it’s much harder for most people to tell, whereas with most trans identifying males are obviously men). They’re obviously not a threat to men/men won’t identify them as female so it shouldn’t be an issue.

This can be true. My daughter has a transman friend and he (I do think of him as "he", because I've only known him as that and she of course refers to him like that) who I think does pass well. Average height and doesn't look either overly masculine or overly feminine, but you definitely don't immediately think "female". Of course being young (19/20) helps, and he definitely doesn't seem threatening or in any way confrontational. Not sure what loos he uses.... I've never asked.

They're not all like that. There's a pub near me that renamed their men's and women's toilets to gender neutral, and made absolutely no changes to them. Normal cubicles, one side still had urinals, which was a bit of a shock to most women who ventured in that side.

I'm not particularly welcome in there any more after I kicked off about them and got labeled a transphobe, so I don't know if they've changed them back in light of the new guidance, I somehow doubt it though. The landlords brother is a laydee so he's very much on their side. I imagine it'll taken someone threatening them with legal action before they do it.

I've used toilets today at a national trust property that are not compliant.signed as everyone can use. . Cubicles opening onto sinks, not floor to ceiling. Not much room so men brushing past you to exit..

I've used them only once before and felt just as uncomfortable today as I did last time. Today I was there at the same time as two men. It was not nice.

The trouble is they got rid of the second set of toilets. So there is now a gender neutral accessible loo and these mixed sex ones. Even worse the door exits to the back of the building away from the seating area.

I really dislike them. It's not right.

This is the problem that the OP is on about too.

It’s not ‘gender neutral’ toilets she’s worried about. It’s the single sex designs being repurposed for mixed sex use in the name of ‘gender inclusivity’. This will now stop. The pub you discuss will have to change their toilets back too. It’s ridiculous having urinals up one side so women and girls have to walk past.

Having open urinals in a toilet room including women makes a farce of the Sexual Offences Act. If a man is at the urinals and shakes his penis but turns round as a woman enters the toilet room, and she says it’s sexual, how’s that not going to be a problem under section 71 and 66?

What a mess

Yeah, it's not good for men either. The vast majority don't want women (or, even worse, young girls) in there when they are peeing.

Very much agree.

I may be wrong but I don’t think that many places will fully change their facilities. It costs money and will leave them with less facilities overall as you can get less unisex toilets in a space than you could single sex ones. As the unisex ones need to be in an enclosed room with sink etc.

Most transmen I’ve ever seen look more like Elliot Page or Chase Strangio than like a man, never mind a scary-looking man.

Yes, it would be very rare that a business would change their single sex facilities to unisex facilities. Approved document T states you have to cater for single sex provision first. That was highlighted in building reg requirements from 2010.

Having open urinals in a toilet room including women makes a farce of the Sexual Offences Act. If a man is at the urinals and shakes his penis but turns round as a woman enters the toilet room, and she says it’s sexual, how’s that not going to be a problem under section 71 and 66?

I've had this at a venue in Leeds. Large unisex toilets with sinks and mirrors in the middle. A man urinated with the toilet door open then turned around. Anyone walking past or washing their hands would see.

Please write and complain. They need to know that their customers are not happy with this (and they are opening themselves up to being sued).

Yep. Similar was happening in the Home Office toilets when they changed to ‘gender neutral’ in 2018.

How can you tell if it’s deliberate or ‘accidental’.

Happened to me on holiday - there was a gender neutral cubicle and a disabled one - the door of the gender neutral one was ajar so I assumed it was empty, pushed it open only to find a man peeing in there, not sure which of us was more shocked. But it was his fault for not locking or at least closing the door. I dashed into the disabled one before he came out!

I am so sorry that this happened to you OP.

It infuriates me that no one has asked me as a woman whether I mind men being allowed into my spaces. I do - for the major reason that you mention and for the minor reason that public toilets used by men always smell much worse than the ladies.

It is utterly ridiculous that the wishes of a tiny minority of very vocal people are granted without reference to wishes of half the population and it has backfired by creating prejudice against the trans population that never used to exist. While I used to bear them no ill will they now make me very angry.

Yes exactly. I wanted to tell him next time close the door but also didn't want to add to the thrill if it has been on purpose.

I would be very cynical about toilet doors being left "accidentally" open by men in a mixed-sex environment.

Once upon a time, I was a naive 18 year old living in long-stay women's homelessness accommodation. The building was subdivided into flats, so that toilets and kitchen facilities were shared by the women on that floor. As it happened, my room door was directly opposite one of the toilets, which was very convenient for me if I woke up in the middle of the night needing the toilet.

Anyway, we were allowed to have visitors including male ones. While they were visiting, those visitors would use the same toilets as residents. One of the ladies on my floor acquired a boyfriend. So far, so normal. However, I noticed that every time he went to the toilet, which was directly opposite my room, he left the door open, which meant I'd see him urinating. After a week of walking out on to a view of him urinating every time I came out of my room, I took it up with my fellow resident. She told him I'd complained, and he told her that I was making it all up and that I must be "crazy". She dumped him, so that's the happy ending.

But it was not accidental in the least. He was fully aware I'd seen him each and every time, and if it had been accidental, he would have shut the door after the first time I saw him and his penis.

I saw a recent post from Akua Reindorf (former of the EHRC) who said that that passage is very unlikely to be proportionate when applied to basic services like toilets. It's more applicable to things like rape crisis.

However, she also encouraged a trans-identified woman to use the disabled toilet rather than the women's. She recognised this has a negative impact on disabled people but felt it was proportionate due to the small number of 'passing' trans-identified women.