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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Right-wing press perpetuating hate over Widdecombe

446 replies

YourHateIsShowing · 16/07/2026 08:41

The Daily Express and others claiming the reaction to Ann Widdecombe’s death has somehow “exposed the left” as hateful, is nonsense as usual.

There is hate on the left. Without question. There’s also hate on the right. There are totally extreme nut jobs on both sides, too. Neither side has a total monopoly on either. But I think it’s pretty lazy to not see past the noise and understand the origin of hatred on any side of conflict. Context is everything. And most can agree with that when it comes to certain situations. As a mother, I understand the hatred a mother would feel towards a drunk driver who ended their child’s life through one careless selfish decision to drive home from the pub intoxicated. Or for worse crimes we know exist. I’m using these examples simply to make the case that our value systems should be consistent. Not to imply the level of harm is the same in all cases. That would be an overreach.

Ann Widdecombe was a deeply controversial politician. She was unapologetic about her views on immigration, LGBTQ+ rights, welfare and poverty. I remember her response when challenged about people who couldn’t afford a cheese sandwich: her answer amounted to, “Don’t have a cheese sandwich then.” I’ve watched her for years as a speaker on right wing conservative talking points; she dedicated her life to politics, but very often in ways that supported the structural degradation of groups of already marginalised people in society. So I loathed what she stood for and I make no secret of that.
And why should others who were actually targeted or harmed by the spread of her views suddenly be expected to pretend she was a saint because of what happened to her? Or be quiet? Widdecombe was anything a saint and anything but quiet throughout her political career. Death doesn’t erase public record.

What I will say though, is this: what happened to her was awful. Abhorrent. What happened was utterly disgusting, AND so were her views on a lot of things. Views that had influence. That doesn’t mean she deserved what happened to her. I feel for her, and her family. She would have been scared. She has my empathy for that. In spades. But I certainly don’t think others who were the focus of her intolerance should be expected to rewrite history or suppress honest criticism of the suffering she supported within society, out of respect for some weird convention that says we should only speak well of the dead. I don’t buy into that.

I’m sure Ann loved her family, had close friends, and watered all her house plants. I don’t see the world in terms of heroes and villains. We can be either at any time under different circumstances. But for those who’ve maybe read 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, you may also find truth in the words of Covey who said “we are what we repeatedly do”. If you repeatedly lie, guess what? You’re a liar.

There’s truth in that, even though I mostly see people on a spectrum and not in the binary. I still see the small compounding decisions they repeatedly make, and more importantly how those decisions impact others. We can also accept conflicting ideas, where good people commit a bad act, for good reason. It’s complicated.
But overall, some people leave the world a tiny bit kinder, fairer and more compassionate as a result of those compounding decisions met with their sphere of influence. Others leave it more divided, more fearful or less equal. Most of us fall somewhere in between. And most have little influence outside our immediate circle.
Ann had more than the average bod, so I hold her and other public figures to a higher standard. She didn’t stack up, for me.

Ann Widdecombe accepted and even defended policy that saw totally unnecessary poverty and hunger (children included), in the 6th richest country in the world. She stood against abortion in cases of rape. And she consistently fought against gay rights. She repeatedly contributed to this. This is who she was. What she stood for. And what those who support her stand for.

So what the right read as hatred among the left today, in the wake of this awful event that brought her world views into sharp focus, I read as an intolerance not of her skin colour, or her sexual orientation, or her nationality, but of all she stood for and against; all she was intolerant of in people without choices.

Karl Popper’s paradox of tolerance explains this best, I think. If you’ve not come across it, it’s essentially characterised by an intolerance of intolerance itself. The difference is this: to be intolerant of someone’s skin colour, ethnicity, or other things they cannot change, such as their sexual orientation, or even level of poverty, certainly if you’re still a child born into it, is not the same as having an intolerance of those who punch down at them from a place of privilege.

Ann Widdecombe was openly homophobic and believed science should one day cure it, as if being gay were a disease to be eradicated. That’s a profound intolerance of something people cannot change. The same cannot be said of a worldview built on prejudice, bigotry or theocratic ideology. Those are beliefs. They’re decisions. They can be questioned, challenged and changed. Even after death. And if she and others like her directed more of their intolerance towards harmful ideas, rather than towards people for who they are, and for that which they cannot change, we’d have less hatred on both sides. But the root of that hatred, is glaringly obvious when you actually take the time to analyse it. Spoiler alert: it’s not coming from the left.

So this headline can get in the bin.
Where it belongs.

Right-wing press perpetuating hate over Widdecombe
OP posts:
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Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 14:12

FlirtsWithRhinos · Yesterday 14:10

My posts are all there, as are yours.

I am always happy to engage in good faith with conversations that move forward. However, this is not one of those conversations.

I won't bother asking you again to stop misrepresenting me. Whatever you say, I'm sure you are right.

Genuinely are you alright? You seem both unable to engage but also unable to step away from a conversation you clearly don't want to have no matter how many times you've announced your exit.

FlirtsWithRhinos · Yesterday 14:16

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 14:12

Genuinely are you alright? You seem both unable to engage but also unable to step away from a conversation you clearly don't want to have no matter how many times you've announced your exit.

Whatever you say, I'm sure you are right.

Obanotters · Yesterday 14:20

People talking about catholic beliefs here are missing out on the most important aspect of those beliefs - eternal life in heaven. Time on earth is considered but a blink of an eye in comparison. So if they DIDN’T care for certain groups then they would have no concern if their behaviour led them to eternal damnation.

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 14:22

FlirtsWithRhinos · Yesterday 14:16

Whatever you say, I'm sure you are right.

I genuinely was interested to hear what I had misrepresented from you as we had been having an interesting conversation before that, but you seem in a bit of a strop now and don't want to talk about why you're so upset. I'm sure you'll respond again with no substance just to get the last word and that's a shame as it just looks silly. As it is then I'll take the opportunity to say I'm glad you agree homophobia is hateful 😘

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 14:24

Obanotters · Yesterday 14:20

People talking about catholic beliefs here are missing out on the most important aspect of those beliefs - eternal life in heaven. Time on earth is considered but a blink of an eye in comparison. So if they DIDN’T care for certain groups then they would have no concern if their behaviour led them to eternal damnation.

And this is the exact argument they used to put women in laundries, that their atrocious treatment was loving for these poor people's eternal souls. What people seem to be missing is that we are happy for you all to believe in eternity and live in a way that gets you to heaven,.but we don't want your concern for our souls as we don't believe it in that or eternal life. If it ends up being true, that's our own fault.

FlirtsWithRhinos · Yesterday 14:40

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 14:22

I genuinely was interested to hear what I had misrepresented from you as we had been having an interesting conversation before that, but you seem in a bit of a strop now and don't want to talk about why you're so upset. I'm sure you'll respond again with no substance just to get the last word and that's a shame as it just looks silly. As it is then I'll take the opportunity to say I'm glad you agree homophobia is hateful 😘

If I thought you were genuine I'd happily engage. But I replied in good faith to you many times and the result was you simply misrepresented me then doubled down.

You are obsessed with making this personal because you took it personally, to the point you jumped right back on a post that was not in reply to you and specifically said it was a general social comment to make it personal again.

So I'm sorry but no. You have done nothing to convince me you will engage with what I am saying so I cannot see how this conversation can ever go anywhere.

My posts are clear, my point is clear. You say you wish me to engage, but only because you are trying to force me to defend the interpretation you placed on me, which I see no point whatsoever in doing given it's not the point I made.

So, whatever you say, I'm sure you are right.

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 15:10

FlirtsWithRhinos · Yesterday 14:40

If I thought you were genuine I'd happily engage. But I replied in good faith to you many times and the result was you simply misrepresented me then doubled down.

You are obsessed with making this personal because you took it personally, to the point you jumped right back on a post that was not in reply to you and specifically said it was a general social comment to make it personal again.

So I'm sorry but no. You have done nothing to convince me you will engage with what I am saying so I cannot see how this conversation can ever go anywhere.

My posts are clear, my point is clear. You say you wish me to engage, but only because you are trying to force me to defend the interpretation you placed on me, which I see no point whatsoever in doing given it's not the point I made.

So, whatever you say, I'm sure you are right.

Called it.

SionnachRuadh · Yesterday 15:12

Shortshriftandlethal · Yesterday 12:03

The implication being that they had included her on their list of bad faith ( Hate) actors....and were maybe worried that they could be subject to legal action in the way that Heather Herbert has now been?

They got a million quid from the National Lottery recently, but legal fees could eat that up pretty quickly, and Nick Lowles might have to get a real job.

FlirtsWithRhinos · Yesterday 15:33

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 15:10

Called it.

Yes. You cunningly predicted after many posts where I said I would not engage, that I would not engage.

All the answers to your questions are already there in my previous posts, as is your wriggling around to change what I said into something you felt you preferred to argue about.

Still, whatever you say, I'm sure you are right.

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 15:51

FlirtsWithRhinos · Yesterday 15:33

Yes. You cunningly predicted after many posts where I said I would not engage, that I would not engage.

All the answers to your questions are already there in my previous posts, as is your wriggling around to change what I said into something you felt you preferred to argue about.

Still, whatever you say, I'm sure you are right.

It's the reduction of other people's motivations to an irrational emotional reaction as an excuse to dismiss them out of hand as not worth engaging with or caring about, maybe even to "fight back first and harder".

Sounds exactly like reducing an entire conversation down to misrepresentation and being unwilling to supply any proof of what you're even referring to, continually announcing your exiting and copy and pasting the same sign off like an NPC. Called it that you have some issue with walking away no matter how many times you insist you don't want to clarify your point. If you'r confused, not engaging wouldn't be continuing to engage, you're engaging, just with no substance. Just scolds with no proof🙂 Lemme guess whatever you say I'm sure i'm right, right? (So teenage!)

Obanotters · Yesterday 15:55

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 14:24

And this is the exact argument they used to put women in laundries, that their atrocious treatment was loving for these poor people's eternal souls. What people seem to be missing is that we are happy for you all to believe in eternity and live in a way that gets you to heaven,.but we don't want your concern for our souls as we don't believe it in that or eternal life. If it ends up being true, that's our own fault.

The laundry’s were an abomination and there has been a lot of terribly actions carried out within the Roman Catholic church (and others) over the years. Like any institution power corrupts. But whilst you might not believe in eternal souls if someone does then if they love you they would not want you to be condemned to eternal hell so would not condone behaviours that they believe would lead you there. The point is that not agreeing with certain behaviours on this basis is not hatred of you. Your arguments should with catholics should then be around freedom of belief not just pointing fingers at them and screaming about hate.

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 16:16

Obanotters · Yesterday 15:55

The laundry’s were an abomination and there has been a lot of terribly actions carried out within the Roman Catholic church (and others) over the years. Like any institution power corrupts. But whilst you might not believe in eternal souls if someone does then if they love you they would not want you to be condemned to eternal hell so would not condone behaviours that they believe would lead you there. The point is that not agreeing with certain behaviours on this basis is not hatred of you. Your arguments should with catholics should then be around freedom of belief not just pointing fingers at them and screaming about hate.

Like any institution power corrupts

The atrocity isn't seperate from the theology though.these laundries were for the purpose you describe, purifying these people's souls out of an abusive kind of "love". This wasn't a few bad apples abusing power. Remember, abusers also claim to love the women they abuse. Abusive men often say he's doing it for her own good, to teach her, to help her. They only control so much to protect. Harm with good intentions is still harm and the impact on women remains regardless. You can argue till the cows come home that the laundries were intended with love, it doesn't stop them in practice showing disdain and hate for women (and children born out of wedlock).

Your arguments should with catholics should then be around freedom of belief not just pointing fingers at them and screaming about hate.

I'm not screaming, I don't know why you're assuming a woman disagreeing with you is angry or emotional. It's funny, but sad on a feminist forum, that even over text, I'm basically being told to lower my tone and voice as though disagreeing with religion is inherently hysterical
I'm not screaming about hate. I'm simply describing the experience of having people point their finger at you first and insist they want to save my soul without my consent. I think the concern is an inability to control one's own anxiety about other people's souls and so you feel you have to go on some rescue missions people are explicitly saying they don't want. I'm not asking them to "condone" me, ideally they would practice their belief in peace and quiet while gay people live their lives in peace and quiet also. Just as I think all religious people shouldn't be bothering eachother either just because a Buddhist may feel you're condemning your soul by being catholic, it doesn't give them some sort of authority to condone or condemn your life. It becomes hateful when people are fully aware of the impact of their unconsensual behaviour and weird boundaries (like telling me God would prefer me to be with a man) and they continue regardless of people's discomfort to satisfy their own internal anxiety.

Obanotters · Yesterday 16:41

I disagree that you can’t separate abuses from theology. Corruption/abuse exists in all societies regardless of religious/political/ideology/belief frameworks. Such frameworks merely provide an excuse for that abuse or a means to carry it out or the ability to acquire power over others. The person who viciously murdered Anne Widdecombe was also driven by an ideology.

FlirtsWithRhinos · Yesterday 17:01

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 15:51

It's the reduction of other people's motivations to an irrational emotional reaction as an excuse to dismiss them out of hand as not worth engaging with or caring about, maybe even to "fight back first and harder".

Sounds exactly like reducing an entire conversation down to misrepresentation and being unwilling to supply any proof of what you're even referring to, continually announcing your exiting and copy and pasting the same sign off like an NPC. Called it that you have some issue with walking away no matter how many times you insist you don't want to clarify your point. If you'r confused, not engaging wouldn't be continuing to engage, you're engaging, just with no substance. Just scolds with no proof🙂 Lemme guess whatever you say I'm sure i'm right, right? (So teenage!)

I'm sorry but I have explained many times why I am choosing not to engage with the assertions you are making against me. I could of course reply to each one and get myself pulled down the garden path you so want me to follow, but every time you try to goad me it just makes me more certain that will go nowhere other than wasting my time and winding you up further, which I have no wish to do.

My posts are here as are yours.

Whatever it is you think, you believe you are right and justified to think it. Go happy with that knowledge.

Ereshkigalangcleg · Yesterday 17:10

SionnachRuadh · Yesterday 15:12

They got a million quid from the National Lottery recently, but legal fees could eat that up pretty quickly, and Nick Lowles might have to get a real job.

Say it ain’t so!

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 17:12

FlirtsWithRhinos · Yesterday 17:01

I'm sorry but I have explained many times why I am choosing not to engage with the assertions you are making against me. I could of course reply to each one and get myself pulled down the garden path you so want me to follow, but every time you try to goad me it just makes me more certain that will go nowhere other than wasting my time and winding you up further, which I have no wish to do.

My posts are here as are yours.

Whatever it is you think, you believe you are right and justified to think it. Go happy with that knowledge.

You are engaging and saying I'm misrepresenting you and making accusations against you, without specifying even once what comment which part of any of your posts have been misrepresented. You also, clearly, very much feel you're right and justified even though I've clearly said I'm confused of what you've taken the wrong way. It's weird, it would take less or the same amount of effort than typing out this repetitive avoidance.

FlirtsWithRhinos · Yesterday 17:14

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 17:12

You are engaging and saying I'm misrepresenting you and making accusations against you, without specifying even once what comment which part of any of your posts have been misrepresented. You also, clearly, very much feel you're right and justified even though I've clearly said I'm confused of what you've taken the wrong way. It's weird, it would take less or the same amount of effort than typing out this repetitive avoidance.

My posts are here, as are yours.

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 17:23

Obanotters · Yesterday 16:41

I disagree that you can’t separate abuses from theology. Corruption/abuse exists in all societies regardless of religious/political/ideology/belief frameworks. Such frameworks merely provide an excuse for that abuse or a means to carry it out or the ability to acquire power over others. The person who viciously murdered Anne Widdecombe was also driven by an ideology.

I agree that abuse exists in all groups and societies. I still don't think that means you can totally separate the abuses from the theology in the case of the laundries. They were designed on the belief of redemptive suffering for fallen women. If the doctrines of a belief justify suffering and control as a form of love, the abuse is the the doctrine operating as designed. I don't think the laundries were some bad apples corrupting an ideology, it was an institutional decision to run those laundries and only ended because their abuses were outed and people were rightly outraged. That doesn't mean there won't still be abuse in other groups without that belief, but abuses in other places doesn't negate the fact that the church institutionally has carried out hateful acts in the name of Christian love. A rogue extremist motivated by ideology isn't the same as violence carried out on the scale that church has on an institutionally level, although obviously both are awful.

OpheliaWasntMad · Yesterday 17:42

YourHateIsShowing · 16/07/2026 09:17

I'm not entirely convinced you've read the same words I wrote.

I don't think I've advocated for murder at all; political or otherwise. Or, indeed, made any attempt to justify this particular murder.
Further, I called out what happened to her as abhorrent and that my empathy went out to her for the fear she must have felt.
I'd like to think that, by any reasonable measure, I've made all that pretty clear.

But my post isn't about the question of whether this murder, or any murder, is justified based on the degree of moral stance of the victim. I will say it again, clearly for you as I think it will really help, no murder is justified.

So you think her murder was dreadful… but so were her views.
You minimise the atrocity of murder by condemning her “hateful” opinions in the aftermath of her death.

She was entitled to her opinions. You are entitled to criticise them but to do so after she was murdered ( probably because of her opinions) suggests you think she was “asking for it”

Shame on you

Your title and username are deeply hypocritical.

When someone distorts the narrative (or lies) they tell you who they really are.

AcquadiP · Yesterday 18:08

Ann Widdecombe was openly homophobic

No, she wasn't. She had deeply held religious beliefs but this didn't prevent her from having many gay friends including Robert Rinder, Iain Dale and Harvey Proctor.

Iain Dale and Harvey Proctor both spoke very movingly about her on TV after her murder. In addition, HP wrote a piece for the Times entitled "When I lost everything, Ann Widdecombe stood by me." This refers to the period in which false sexual allegations were made against HP and he writes of AW staunchly supporting him both privately and publicly.

LuckyHazelFox · Yesterday 20:55

Ann Widdecombe was incorrectly quoted and misread on most of her views. You might want to catch up on some of her interviews on You Tube that are currently trending. That's if you're open minded.

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