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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Right-wing press perpetuating hate over Widdecombe

446 replies

YourHateIsShowing · 16/07/2026 08:41

The Daily Express and others claiming the reaction to Ann Widdecombe’s death has somehow “exposed the left” as hateful, is nonsense as usual.

There is hate on the left. Without question. There’s also hate on the right. There are totally extreme nut jobs on both sides, too. Neither side has a total monopoly on either. But I think it’s pretty lazy to not see past the noise and understand the origin of hatred on any side of conflict. Context is everything. And most can agree with that when it comes to certain situations. As a mother, I understand the hatred a mother would feel towards a drunk driver who ended their child’s life through one careless selfish decision to drive home from the pub intoxicated. Or for worse crimes we know exist. I’m using these examples simply to make the case that our value systems should be consistent. Not to imply the level of harm is the same in all cases. That would be an overreach.

Ann Widdecombe was a deeply controversial politician. She was unapologetic about her views on immigration, LGBTQ+ rights, welfare and poverty. I remember her response when challenged about people who couldn’t afford a cheese sandwich: her answer amounted to, “Don’t have a cheese sandwich then.” I’ve watched her for years as a speaker on right wing conservative talking points; she dedicated her life to politics, but very often in ways that supported the structural degradation of groups of already marginalised people in society. So I loathed what she stood for and I make no secret of that.
And why should others who were actually targeted or harmed by the spread of her views suddenly be expected to pretend she was a saint because of what happened to her? Or be quiet? Widdecombe was anything a saint and anything but quiet throughout her political career. Death doesn’t erase public record.

What I will say though, is this: what happened to her was awful. Abhorrent. What happened was utterly disgusting, AND so were her views on a lot of things. Views that had influence. That doesn’t mean she deserved what happened to her. I feel for her, and her family. She would have been scared. She has my empathy for that. In spades. But I certainly don’t think others who were the focus of her intolerance should be expected to rewrite history or suppress honest criticism of the suffering she supported within society, out of respect for some weird convention that says we should only speak well of the dead. I don’t buy into that.

I’m sure Ann loved her family, had close friends, and watered all her house plants. I don’t see the world in terms of heroes and villains. We can be either at any time under different circumstances. But for those who’ve maybe read 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, you may also find truth in the words of Covey who said “we are what we repeatedly do”. If you repeatedly lie, guess what? You’re a liar.

There’s truth in that, even though I mostly see people on a spectrum and not in the binary. I still see the small compounding decisions they repeatedly make, and more importantly how those decisions impact others. We can also accept conflicting ideas, where good people commit a bad act, for good reason. It’s complicated.
But overall, some people leave the world a tiny bit kinder, fairer and more compassionate as a result of those compounding decisions met with their sphere of influence. Others leave it more divided, more fearful or less equal. Most of us fall somewhere in between. And most have little influence outside our immediate circle.
Ann had more than the average bod, so I hold her and other public figures to a higher standard. She didn’t stack up, for me.

Ann Widdecombe accepted and even defended policy that saw totally unnecessary poverty and hunger (children included), in the 6th richest country in the world. She stood against abortion in cases of rape. And she consistently fought against gay rights. She repeatedly contributed to this. This is who she was. What she stood for. And what those who support her stand for.

So what the right read as hatred among the left today, in the wake of this awful event that brought her world views into sharp focus, I read as an intolerance not of her skin colour, or her sexual orientation, or her nationality, but of all she stood for and against; all she was intolerant of in people without choices.

Karl Popper’s paradox of tolerance explains this best, I think. If you’ve not come across it, it’s essentially characterised by an intolerance of intolerance itself. The difference is this: to be intolerant of someone’s skin colour, ethnicity, or other things they cannot change, such as their sexual orientation, or even level of poverty, certainly if you’re still a child born into it, is not the same as having an intolerance of those who punch down at them from a place of privilege.

Ann Widdecombe was openly homophobic and believed science should one day cure it, as if being gay were a disease to be eradicated. That’s a profound intolerance of something people cannot change. The same cannot be said of a worldview built on prejudice, bigotry or theocratic ideology. Those are beliefs. They’re decisions. They can be questioned, challenged and changed. Even after death. And if she and others like her directed more of their intolerance towards harmful ideas, rather than towards people for who they are, and for that which they cannot change, we’d have less hatred on both sides. But the root of that hatred, is glaringly obvious when you actually take the time to analyse it. Spoiler alert: it’s not coming from the left.

So this headline can get in the bin.
Where it belongs.

Right-wing press perpetuating hate over Widdecombe
OP posts:
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11
Ipsevenenabibas · Yesterday 12:27

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 12:21

I don't think by asking them to stop protecting and harbouring pedos is asking them to be morally flawless. Simply engaging with all the historical investigations and providing any evidence they hold that may give victims justice is not asking them to be "morally flawless".

The Church has undeniably failed victims in many cases, and those failures deserve condemnation. Catholics should support full cooperation with police and independent investigations wherever abuse is alleged. At the same time, it's important not to assume that every diocese or every Church authority is currently obstructing justice. There has been significant reform, even if many believe more still needs to be done.

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 12:32

CornishDaughteroftheDawn · Yesterday 12:27

Given your earlier and noticeably inaccurate claims about what she said, I’m still not sure you have listened to her actual words and their context before forming your opinion.

You are obviously still entitled to hold that opinion but its validity is somewhat undermined by your lack of facts.

From a political perspective though in the UK Muslim communities have voted in ways that are surprisingly gay friendly.

Without wishing to derail and with no evidence I find that very hard to believe. Unless you mean the deal done with the Greens based on even more lies and false premises? I have no idea what your general opinion was because you didn’t answer my question on it.

And yes, I am concerned by the idea of handing greater political power to a community where the majority express views that homosexuality should be illegal. Why aren’t you?

Edited

Because as I've stated who knows how many times, I don't wish to restrict democracy or anyone's religions believes provided the law protects us all equally. I couldn't care less if a % of people wish homosexuality was illegal as it's not the sort of thing that should be put to a public poll to decide. Are you suggesting you're also concerned then about conservatives Christians voting - what exactly do you recommend except for them having their democratic right to vote?😕 And how do you talk about your concerns for Muslims when using the words homophobia and hateful are verboten and extremist?

FlirtsWithRhinos · Yesterday 12:32

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 12:18

The casual normalisation of extremist language on both sides is exactly what is tearing down tolerance in society.I'm sorry you can't see that

In that case, I'm afraid you will face this "hate" you believe you are seeing all your life. Because what you are seeing isn't in fact in their mind, it is in yours. In how you believe they are and what you blieve they feel.The only way to change people's minds...

It is very convenient for the accuser to be able to dismiss people with whom they disagree as being motivated by an irrational emotional state that exists behind their words rather than considering what they actually say and why.

I think it's interesting you continually assigned my POV to be falsely assisting an emotional state to homophobes while continually calling me upset, emotional, fearful etc and now are flouncing that I said you were misunderstanding that I don't care to engage with these people to change their mind and don't feel it's my responsibility to educate them. Just another person advocating for discussions they won't have it seems, except to tell people to not speak too harshly about those who want to impose their religion on other people

My posts are all there. Cherry picking to misrepresent me is pointless.

I am telling you clearly, again, that you are wrong in the meanings and motivations you assign to me.

Your replies to me are also all there. You've made it very clear anything I say will be twisted.

I see no benefit in continuing that charade.

Please stop misrepresenting me.

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 12:35

Ipsevenenabibas · Yesterday 12:27

The Church has undeniably failed victims in many cases, and those failures deserve condemnation. Catholics should support full cooperation with police and independent investigations wherever abuse is alleged. At the same time, it's important not to assume that every diocese or every Church authority is currently obstructing justice. There has been significant reform, even if many believe more still needs to be done.

In every case they failed, not just failed even fully instructed bishops etc to move and protect priests that abused people. I know a local level parish is not the same as the head of the church, but until there is full reform at the top and it's still one big institution. People can be a part of it if they wish and they can reconcile that with their care for women and children, but asking people who aren't followers of the catholic church to consider their moral opinions on our lives is very much too soon.

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 12:37

FlirtsWithRhinos · Yesterday 12:32

My posts are all there. Cherry picking to misrepresent me is pointless.

I am telling you clearly, again, that you are wrong in the meanings and motivations you assign to me.

Your replies to me are also all there. You've made it very clear anything I say will be twisted.

I see no benefit in continuing that charade.

Please stop misrepresenting me.

You can't even say what's been misrepresented, I'm aware your posts are readable, I've reread them and concur with my assessment you were lecturing me on using the word hateful as I was assigning an emotional motivation to homophobes and would never change their mind, then called me emotional, and are having a flounce that I don't care to change these people's minds or argue with them. I look forward to your repetitive response that you're being misrepresented, but in good faith you would explain what's being misrepresented.

FlirtsWithRhinos · Yesterday 12:46

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 12:37

You can't even say what's been misrepresented, I'm aware your posts are readable, I've reread them and concur with my assessment you were lecturing me on using the word hateful as I was assigning an emotional motivation to homophobes and would never change their mind, then called me emotional, and are having a flounce that I don't care to change these people's minds or argue with them. I look forward to your repetitive response that you're being misrepresented, but in good faith you would explain what's being misrepresented.

You've made it very clear anything I say will be twisted.

I see no point in replying to your questions just to allow you to continue your charade.

My posts are all there, as are yours.

I am always happy to engage in good faith with conversations that move forward. However, this is not one of those conversations.

Please stop misrepresenting me.

nicepotoftea · Yesterday 12:54

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 12:03

Sorry I don't get your question,it's obviously Ann and similar I can find their insistence on applying their personal beliefs to others sad and hateful and still accept they have the liberty to belief as they wish and practice it. I don't get where I've implied I'm not talking about AW or how this is me not accepting they have a right to practice their beliefs.

I would argue that these are religious rather than personal beliefs, but has she campaigned for the reversal of legislation on civil partnerships and same sex marriage? I was under the impression that she accepted that she had lost and had moved on. Do you know of anything to suggest otherwise?

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 13:06

FlirtsWithRhinos · Yesterday 12:46

You've made it very clear anything I say will be twisted.

I see no point in replying to your questions just to allow you to continue your charade.

My posts are all there, as are yours.

I am always happy to engage in good faith with conversations that move forward. However, this is not one of those conversations.

Please stop misrepresenting me.

I haven't twisted anything and you know so hence you won't even elaborate on what I'm twisting. The only "accusation" I made to you was that you said calling them hateful was one side of the extremist division in this country and I've only pasted your exact words back at you, not cherry picked out of a sentence just the words I'm referencing which you claim are misrepresented. If you're unfamiliar with a forum, people are reading your posts without knowing you or your intentions or your tone, it's common that there's misunderstandings and when feeling misunderstood it's usually best to clarify what you mean or what you feel is misrepresented instead of continually huffing that your words are being twisted - from what to what?

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 13:08

nicepotoftea · Yesterday 12:54

I would argue that these are religious rather than personal beliefs, but has she campaigned for the reversal of legislation on civil partnerships and same sex marriage? I was under the impression that she accepted that she had lost and had moved on. Do you know of anything to suggest otherwise?

Religious beliefs are personal beliefs. They're not accepted fact. When did I say she campaigned to reserve legislation? I said she spent her political career blocking or voting against it at every opportunity, which she did. I don't think she accepted she had lost or moved on either of she felt so strongly that she couldn't even be seen at a close friend's CP ceremony. But that's beside the point - which bit of my post said she campaigned to reserve SS marriage or CPs?

FlirtsWithRhinos · Yesterday 13:22

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 13:06

I haven't twisted anything and you know so hence you won't even elaborate on what I'm twisting. The only "accusation" I made to you was that you said calling them hateful was one side of the extremist division in this country and I've only pasted your exact words back at you, not cherry picked out of a sentence just the words I'm referencing which you claim are misrepresented. If you're unfamiliar with a forum, people are reading your posts without knowing you or your intentions or your tone, it's common that there's misunderstandings and when feeling misunderstood it's usually best to clarify what you mean or what you feel is misrepresented instead of continually huffing that your words are being twisted - from what to what?

You've made it very clear anything I say will be twisted.

I see no point in replying to your questions just to allow you to continue your charade.

My posts are all there, as are yours.

I am always happy to engage in good faith with conversations that move forward. However, this is not one of those conversations.

Please stop misrepresenting me.

nicepotoftea · Yesterday 13:24

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 13:08

Religious beliefs are personal beliefs. They're not accepted fact. When did I say she campaigned to reserve legislation? I said she spent her political career blocking or voting against it at every opportunity, which she did. I don't think she accepted she had lost or moved on either of she felt so strongly that she couldn't even be seen at a close friend's CP ceremony. But that's beside the point - which bit of my post said she campaigned to reserve SS marriage or CPs?

Religious beliefs are personal beliefs. But they are based on an external doctrine

But that's beside the point - which bit of my post said she campaigned to reserve SS marriage or CPs?

This would have been evidence that she was insisting on applying her beliefs to others.

I don't think she accepted she had lost or moved on either of she felt so strongly that she couldn't even be seen at a close friend's CP ceremony.

If Iain Dale didn't believe this was hateful, why should anyone else? Many people don't participate in things for religious reasons - Christmas, birthdays, eating pork or beef, eating or drinking at all at particular times, working on particular days.

It seems more hateful to insist on the presence of hate when there is none.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · Yesterday 13:27

Unwatching this thread now, as all the interesting views seem to have been aired, and the self righteous almost by definition can't see their intolerance.

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 13:33

nicepotoftea · Yesterday 13:24

Religious beliefs are personal beliefs. But they are based on an external doctrine

But that's beside the point - which bit of my post said she campaigned to reserve SS marriage or CPs?

This would have been evidence that she was insisting on applying her beliefs to others.

I don't think she accepted she had lost or moved on either of she felt so strongly that she couldn't even be seen at a close friend's CP ceremony.

If Iain Dale didn't believe this was hateful, why should anyone else? Many people don't participate in things for religious reasons - Christmas, birthdays, eating pork or beef, eating or drinking at all at particular times, working on particular days.

It seems more hateful to insist on the presence of hate when there is none.

External doctrine that they personally believe and wish to live their lives in adherence to. It's not an external doctrine that applies to the rest of us.

Using her political power to vote against repealing section 28, voting against same sex marriage and CPs, criticism both after their legalisation, stating is evidence she wanted her beliefs applied at a societal level as her ideal. I'm not sure why only her campaigned to repeal them would be evidence of that? As it stands, do you think if there had been a vote on repealing them that she wouldn't have been supportive ?

He doesn't have to think it's hateful. As I told PP earlier gau people aren't a left wing monolith. It's perfectly reasonable that some people will be friendly and have a lot in common with someone like AW.

I'm not insisting on the presence of hate, I'm insisting on my right to describe people and their actions as I perceive them, and I think homophobia is hateful at its core just as I think misogyny is.

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 13:35

FlirtsWithRhinos · Yesterday 13:22

You've made it very clear anything I say will be twisted.

I see no point in replying to your questions just to allow you to continue your charade.

My posts are all there, as are yours.

I am always happy to engage in good faith with conversations that move forward. However, this is not one of those conversations.

Please stop misrepresenting me.

If you're going to keep writing the same thing in each time you don't sound like you realise yourself that your own posts are there. I get it, you don't want to quote or expand on what you feel upset about being twisted.

happy d&d GIF by Hyper RPG
nicepotoftea · Yesterday 13:40

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 13:33

External doctrine that they personally believe and wish to live their lives in adherence to. It's not an external doctrine that applies to the rest of us.

Using her political power to vote against repealing section 28, voting against same sex marriage and CPs, criticism both after their legalisation, stating is evidence she wanted her beliefs applied at a societal level as her ideal. I'm not sure why only her campaigned to repeal them would be evidence of that? As it stands, do you think if there had been a vote on repealing them that she wouldn't have been supportive ?

He doesn't have to think it's hateful. As I told PP earlier gau people aren't a left wing monolith. It's perfectly reasonable that some people will be friendly and have a lot in common with someone like AW.

I'm not insisting on the presence of hate, I'm insisting on my right to describe people and their actions as I perceive them, and I think homophobia is hateful at its core just as I think misogyny is.

If she had a phobia of gay people it's difficult to understand how she managed a friendship with Iain Dale and his husband.

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 13:41

Labeling homophobia as hateful as a gay person isn't self-righteous, it’s accurate to my perception and experience of it. It’s fascinating how quickly people confuse a boundary with intolerance and how strongly some feminists (and unsurprisingly the men of course) feel so defensive of the religious intolerance and self righteousness to the point it's not enough for it to be allowed due to free speech, but those women who have a problem with the church need to mind their manners in how they talk about it. Let women speak indeed.

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 13:42

nicepotoftea · Yesterday 13:40

If she had a phobia of gay people it's difficult to understand how she managed a friendship with Iain Dale and his husband.

Yawn..and no misogynist has ever been in a relationship with a woman. This is such a tired line that's already been trotted about by a PP if you read the thread.

FlirtsWithRhinos · Yesterday 13:44

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 13:35

If you're going to keep writing the same thing in each time you don't sound like you realise yourself that your own posts are there. I get it, you don't want to quote or expand on what you feel upset about being twisted.

And yet.

You've made it very clear anything I say will be twisted.

I see no point in replying to your questions just to allow you to continue your charade.

My posts are all there, as are yours.

I am always happy to engage in good faith with conversations that move forward. However, this is not one of those conversations.

Please stop misrepresenting me.

nicepotoftea · Yesterday 13:47

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 13:42

Yawn..and no misogynist has ever been in a relationship with a woman. This is such a tired line that's already been trotted about by a PP if you read the thread.

Misogyny is literally the hatred of women, so by definition it is not possible to be a misogynist and have a positive relationship with a woman.

On the other hand, while I assume that Pope Leo doesn't believe in the ordination of women, I don't think he hates women.

Was that distinction not explained previously or did you miss it?

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 13:56

nicepotoftea · Yesterday 13:47

Misogyny is literally the hatred of women, so by definition it is not possible to be a misogynist and have a positive relationship with a woman.

On the other hand, while I assume that Pope Leo doesn't believe in the ordination of women, I don't think he hates women.

Was that distinction not explained previously or did you miss it?

Rubbish, we have seen abusive misogynistic men supported by their female relatives and partners countless times. Is it a positive relationship for the woman? Probably not objectively but it is still there. Personally I wouldn't consider a friendship positive if that person felt that they couldn't attend to see me partnered with my partner because they categorically didn't believe in unions between same sex couples but I'm not here to dictate how positive Ian finds his friendships. I would think any conditional relationship is not positive. Pope Leo and anyone who holds sincere catholic beliefs believe they don't hate women because "women" to them is an idea created by their patriarchal religion and I'm sure they believe their subjugation if women has been a type of loving behaviour, for women's own good and for their place as the bible states it. Benevolent sexism is still sexism. Remember they also thought they were doing right by women and children with the laundries, I don't care about a man or a homophobes belief about their intentions, I believe in the right of victims and people who experience their discrimination to talk freely and define their experiences and the impact of restrictions on them. I didn't miss when someone tried to pull the benevolent sexism or conditional relationship line before, but clearly you did.

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 14:01

FlirtsWithRhinos · Yesterday 13:44

And yet.

You've made it very clear anything I say will be twisted.

I see no point in replying to your questions just to allow you to continue your charade.

My posts are all there, as are yours.

I am always happy to engage in good faith with conversations that move forward. However, this is not one of those conversations.

Please stop misrepresenting me.

Engaging in good faith and moving a conversation forward usually means replying to people's direct questions such as where exactly you were twisted or misrepresented. Your copy pasting upset about misrepresented is neither in good faith or moving the conversation forward. I'm also sure you vowed ages ago to stop responding to me, you may want to wonder why you can't stop even when you don't want to actually engage in a conversation about your point that you're being misrepresented.

Obanotters · Yesterday 14:02

OPs post reminds me of one of the rules of misogyny:

”10. The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad.”

nicepotoftea · Yesterday 14:02

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 13:56

Rubbish, we have seen abusive misogynistic men supported by their female relatives and partners countless times. Is it a positive relationship for the woman? Probably not objectively but it is still there. Personally I wouldn't consider a friendship positive if that person felt that they couldn't attend to see me partnered with my partner because they categorically didn't believe in unions between same sex couples but I'm not here to dictate how positive Ian finds his friendships. I would think any conditional relationship is not positive. Pope Leo and anyone who holds sincere catholic beliefs believe they don't hate women because "women" to them is an idea created by their patriarchal religion and I'm sure they believe their subjugation if women has been a type of loving behaviour, for women's own good and for their place as the bible states it. Benevolent sexism is still sexism. Remember they also thought they were doing right by women and children with the laundries, I don't care about a man or a homophobes belief about their intentions, I believe in the right of victims and people who experience their discrimination to talk freely and define their experiences and the impact of restrictions on them. I didn't miss when someone tried to pull the benevolent sexism or conditional relationship line before, but clearly you did.

If your argument is that all Catholics actively hate women (including Catholic women), I don't think I am going to be able to shift your point of view.

I think it's sad to see so much hate everywhere, but, as you say, you are entitled to your point of view.

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 14:10

nicepotoftea · Yesterday 14:02

If your argument is that all Catholics actively hate women (including Catholic women), I don't think I am going to be able to shift your point of view.

I think it's sad to see so much hate everywhere, but, as you say, you are entitled to your point of view.

I didn't say every individual Catholic hates women, but categorically teachings are hateful if they condemn women who live outside of the patriarchal demands of NNthe Catholic church and this is quite evident in the language they use about these women.vs how they describe the "good" women of the catholic church. It's also evident in their historic and current condemnation of medicines and procedures that literally save women from dying. You are choosing it seems to not engage with the reality that these people practice benevolent sexism and truly believe it's loving.I don't know how it is you don't want me to see this as a woman unless I go through the world blind, I find it sad it exists and I empathise with them and hope they find a way to live their one brief life on this earth for themselves and not focusing on what other people are doing. My mother is a wonderful elderly catholic woman (hence why I don't feel the era you're born in is relevant) she holds her catholic faith strongly for herself and is able to reconcile the sorts of her religion that brings good to her life and the wider world while being a staunch supporter of women and gay people my entire life.

FlirtsWithRhinos · Yesterday 14:10

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 14:01

Engaging in good faith and moving a conversation forward usually means replying to people's direct questions such as where exactly you were twisted or misrepresented. Your copy pasting upset about misrepresented is neither in good faith or moving the conversation forward. I'm also sure you vowed ages ago to stop responding to me, you may want to wonder why you can't stop even when you don't want to actually engage in a conversation about your point that you're being misrepresented.

My posts are all there, as are yours.

I am always happy to engage in good faith with conversations that move forward. However, this is not one of those conversations.

I won't bother asking you again to stop misrepresenting me. Whatever you say, I'm sure you are right.