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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Right-wing press perpetuating hate over Widdecombe

446 replies

YourHateIsShowing · 16/07/2026 08:41

The Daily Express and others claiming the reaction to Ann Widdecombe’s death has somehow “exposed the left” as hateful, is nonsense as usual.

There is hate on the left. Without question. There’s also hate on the right. There are totally extreme nut jobs on both sides, too. Neither side has a total monopoly on either. But I think it’s pretty lazy to not see past the noise and understand the origin of hatred on any side of conflict. Context is everything. And most can agree with that when it comes to certain situations. As a mother, I understand the hatred a mother would feel towards a drunk driver who ended their child’s life through one careless selfish decision to drive home from the pub intoxicated. Or for worse crimes we know exist. I’m using these examples simply to make the case that our value systems should be consistent. Not to imply the level of harm is the same in all cases. That would be an overreach.

Ann Widdecombe was a deeply controversial politician. She was unapologetic about her views on immigration, LGBTQ+ rights, welfare and poverty. I remember her response when challenged about people who couldn’t afford a cheese sandwich: her answer amounted to, “Don’t have a cheese sandwich then.” I’ve watched her for years as a speaker on right wing conservative talking points; she dedicated her life to politics, but very often in ways that supported the structural degradation of groups of already marginalised people in society. So I loathed what she stood for and I make no secret of that.
And why should others who were actually targeted or harmed by the spread of her views suddenly be expected to pretend she was a saint because of what happened to her? Or be quiet? Widdecombe was anything a saint and anything but quiet throughout her political career. Death doesn’t erase public record.

What I will say though, is this: what happened to her was awful. Abhorrent. What happened was utterly disgusting, AND so were her views on a lot of things. Views that had influence. That doesn’t mean she deserved what happened to her. I feel for her, and her family. She would have been scared. She has my empathy for that. In spades. But I certainly don’t think others who were the focus of her intolerance should be expected to rewrite history or suppress honest criticism of the suffering she supported within society, out of respect for some weird convention that says we should only speak well of the dead. I don’t buy into that.

I’m sure Ann loved her family, had close friends, and watered all her house plants. I don’t see the world in terms of heroes and villains. We can be either at any time under different circumstances. But for those who’ve maybe read 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, you may also find truth in the words of Covey who said “we are what we repeatedly do”. If you repeatedly lie, guess what? You’re a liar.

There’s truth in that, even though I mostly see people on a spectrum and not in the binary. I still see the small compounding decisions they repeatedly make, and more importantly how those decisions impact others. We can also accept conflicting ideas, where good people commit a bad act, for good reason. It’s complicated.
But overall, some people leave the world a tiny bit kinder, fairer and more compassionate as a result of those compounding decisions met with their sphere of influence. Others leave it more divided, more fearful or less equal. Most of us fall somewhere in between. And most have little influence outside our immediate circle.
Ann had more than the average bod, so I hold her and other public figures to a higher standard. She didn’t stack up, for me.

Ann Widdecombe accepted and even defended policy that saw totally unnecessary poverty and hunger (children included), in the 6th richest country in the world. She stood against abortion in cases of rape. And she consistently fought against gay rights. She repeatedly contributed to this. This is who she was. What she stood for. And what those who support her stand for.

So what the right read as hatred among the left today, in the wake of this awful event that brought her world views into sharp focus, I read as an intolerance not of her skin colour, or her sexual orientation, or her nationality, but of all she stood for and against; all she was intolerant of in people without choices.

Karl Popper’s paradox of tolerance explains this best, I think. If you’ve not come across it, it’s essentially characterised by an intolerance of intolerance itself. The difference is this: to be intolerant of someone’s skin colour, ethnicity, or other things they cannot change, such as their sexual orientation, or even level of poverty, certainly if you’re still a child born into it, is not the same as having an intolerance of those who punch down at them from a place of privilege.

Ann Widdecombe was openly homophobic and believed science should one day cure it, as if being gay were a disease to be eradicated. That’s a profound intolerance of something people cannot change. The same cannot be said of a worldview built on prejudice, bigotry or theocratic ideology. Those are beliefs. They’re decisions. They can be questioned, challenged and changed. Even after death. And if she and others like her directed more of their intolerance towards harmful ideas, rather than towards people for who they are, and for that which they cannot change, we’d have less hatred on both sides. But the root of that hatred, is glaringly obvious when you actually take the time to analyse it. Spoiler alert: it’s not coming from the left.

So this headline can get in the bin.
Where it belongs.

Right-wing press perpetuating hate over Widdecombe
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Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 09:07

PaperWalkAndTalk · 16/07/2026 17:37

So now you're saying that the gay people must have had internalised homophobia to be friends with her?

The gay people who were friends with her are very out and proud gay people, many got married to their same-sex partners.

I was simply explaining to you that gay people can also hold conservative views which would give them a lot in common with AW, I clouding conservative views towards homosexuality because you seemed completely confused that someone could have gay friends if they held anti gay views. Still waiting on whose accusation you were talking about?

FlirtsWithRhinos · Yesterday 09:19

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 08:58

Who said it makes me feel better? Maybe it's just my assessment of her beliefs. I note you are quite keen to change my mind, is there a reason why you feel so upset by my opinion?

Upset? No, other than for society. And keen to change youir mind? You own your own mind. All I am doing is offering a different perspective, one that might help you feel less fearful and angry.

But really, we are only talking about you at all because you responded to my posts about societal issues with how that makes you feel given your personal experiences and situation.

i've said what is important. Happy to ignore you now.

CornishDaughteroftheDawn · Yesterday 09:20

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 08:57

Or perhaps I hold an opinion you disagree with, just as she held opinions I disagree with. You seem very set on not accepting diversity of thought.

You are obviously entitled to hold as many opinions as you like.

You are not, however, entitled to misrepresent her views and words and expect no criticism. You may also wish to consider the principles behind your opinions because without clear principles we run the risk of hypocrisy. My comments to you are pointing out where I see potential hypocrisy in your opinions. I note you haven’t addressed them or answered my question.

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 09:24

FlirtsWithRhinos · Yesterday 09:19

Upset? No, other than for society. And keen to change youir mind? You own your own mind. All I am doing is offering a different perspective, one that might help you feel less fearful and angry.

But really, we are only talking about you at all because you responded to my posts about societal issues with how that makes you feel given your personal experiences and situation.

i've said what is important. Happy to ignore you now.

I'm not fearful or angry either..where are you getting these ideas from or is it that you want to put my opinion in a box? I've said I find those who obsessed over others lives being against their religion or morality to be hateful and homophobic in a way I find sad for them. I don't want to ban or change them. I don't feel any anger to engage with them or try to change their minds. If others are free to tell me I'm wrong or even a PP on this thread to tell me I'm living against God's preference (LOL) they're free to do so just am in free to use the word homophobe. It's noticeable you take issue with the latter but didn't have anything to say about such nonsense being said unprompted and unasked for which is the usual homophobic way..just inserting themselves into other people's lives and actions with their opinion.

If you're upset for society you should probably pick your battles between because telling women or gay people to police their language about men or homophobes isn't the best use your time.

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 09:28

CornishDaughteroftheDawn · Yesterday 09:20

You are obviously entitled to hold as many opinions as you like.

You are not, however, entitled to misrepresent her views and words and expect no criticism. You may also wish to consider the principles behind your opinions because without clear principles we run the risk of hypocrisy. My comments to you are pointing out where I see potential hypocrisy in your opinions. I note you haven’t addressed them or answered my question.

No one has adequately explained why it's not hateful or homophobic in a way that has genuinely changed my assessment of it. I answered your question about why I think it's important to have the right to marry in a church, not for myself but for lesbian Christians who are being treated as a lesser than straight Christians, which I find homophobic. What exactly are you confused about that I didn't answer? You agreed yourself she loved a full adult life with awareness of the fight for gay rights and actively fought it at every stage - as was her right - but it's not misrepresentative to call her a homophobe or hateful for doing so. She doesn't get a pass for being older as though every 78 year old is anti gay. It wasn't her age, it was her religion which is based on heteronormative and patriarchal ideals, that a man in the sky likes things a certain way, which has no basis in reality.

Whisperingwaters · Yesterday 09:34

PaperWalkAndTalk · 16/07/2026 17:37

So now you're saying that the gay people must have had internalised homophobia to be friends with her?

The gay people who were friends with her are very out and proud gay people, many got married to their same-sex partners.

Lots of people tolerate their bigoted friends & family out of respect for whatever bond brought them together & created a shared history. And lots of bigoted people tolerate their not so bigoted friends & family for the same reason. That doesn't mean they aren't bigots.

Personally, I made those friendships without knowing their bigoted politics till much later but I still tolerate them out of Christian teachings (forgive them father they know not) even though it has created a distance that can never be regained.

Ereshkigalangcleg · Yesterday 09:35

SionnachRuadh · Yesterday 09:04

Interesting to note that "Hope Not Hate" have quietly deleted their page on Ann Widdecombe.

Very.

Ereshkigalangcleg · Yesterday 09:38

EasternStandard · Yesterday 08:17

It’s not right, it’s not a good thing to put on a thread about Ann Widdecombe’s brutal murder.

It really isn’t.

Ereshkigalangcleg · Yesterday 09:44

Apollo441 · Yesterday 04:24

Are you saying those unhinged quotes were responses to provocations? So where is the TRA website cataloguing the hateful Terf rhetoric? There isn't one and if you think it is because the TRAs are too ladylike to stoop to such a thing then you are dumber than a bag of rocks.

They’ve tried to make one more than once. Predictably those efforts were unconvincing because they always concentrate on “TERFs” rather than people who genuinely wish them harm. So all the receipts were people being mean about their photos rather than telling them they wanted to kerb stomp them, rape them, punch their ovaries out, kill their children in front of them etc, like the entirely unhinged ones GC women get.

FlirtsWithRhinos · Yesterday 09:46

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 09:24

I'm not fearful or angry either..where are you getting these ideas from or is it that you want to put my opinion in a box? I've said I find those who obsessed over others lives being against their religion or morality to be hateful and homophobic in a way I find sad for them. I don't want to ban or change them. I don't feel any anger to engage with them or try to change their minds. If others are free to tell me I'm wrong or even a PP on this thread to tell me I'm living against God's preference (LOL) they're free to do so just am in free to use the word homophobe. It's noticeable you take issue with the latter but didn't have anything to say about such nonsense being said unprompted and unasked for which is the usual homophobic way..just inserting themselves into other people's lives and actions with their opinion.

If you're upset for society you should probably pick your battles between because telling women or gay people to police their language about men or homophobes isn't the best use your time.

I appreciate this is very emotional for you, for very understandable reasons. I am not criticising you for that. You have to live with the knowledge and fear of homophobia and I mostly don't, for myself at least. (I have loved ones who I care and fear for though).

But please stop accusing me of things I haven't said or done. It's not ok to do that.

My point is, as it has been all along, that "hate" is a strong, visceral emotion and to assume that every divisive opinion, or indeed every reactionary one, must be because the person holding it is driven by feeling actual "hate" is simply wrong.

So for those who want to find a way forward, it's not a helpful way to think and certainly not a helpful public stance for advocacy groups to take.

It's not "policing your language" to explain that, it's just noting that language has impact. You can still say whatever you want. It's your choice.

My previous posts explain this in more detail so I won't repeat it again.

nicepotoftea · Yesterday 09:55

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 09:05

And yet those who are so very set on not allowing their fellow Christians who happen to be gay to marry in church have decided these things are a set issue. I think they're hypocritical given not many actually hold the courage of their convictions when it applies to their own religious leaders or institutions.

Regardless of what Christians in general believe, it is clear that AW took the doctrine very seriously. She became a Catholic because she didn't believe in the ordination of women, but she also clearly believed that women should have political power outside the church.

I think you have to accept that some people just take religion seriously and religious beliefs aren't always clear to other people. The orthodox jewish concept of an eruv doesn't make sense to everyone.

She lost on the issue of gay marriage, largely because for most people marriage is now a secular, not a religious concept. That did not stop her from being friends with people who disagreed with her.

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 10:07

FlirtsWithRhinos · Yesterday 09:46

I appreciate this is very emotional for you, for very understandable reasons. I am not criticising you for that. You have to live with the knowledge and fear of homophobia and I mostly don't, for myself at least. (I have loved ones who I care and fear for though).

But please stop accusing me of things I haven't said or done. It's not ok to do that.

My point is, as it has been all along, that "hate" is a strong, visceral emotion and to assume that every divisive opinion, or indeed every reactionary one, must be because the person holding it is driven by feeling actual "hate" is simply wrong.

So for those who want to find a way forward, it's not a helpful way to think and certainly not a helpful public stance for advocacy groups to take.

It's not "policing your language" to explain that, it's just noting that language has impact. You can still say whatever you want. It's your choice.

My previous posts explain this in more detail so I won't repeat it again.

It's really not talking in good faith for you to continually try to assign an emotional status to me that isn't there so that you can avoid engaging with my point. I don't feel emotional and my posts aren't emotional. If anything, you keep saying how upset and distraught you are about society so perhaps this is projection on your part? you didn't want to police my language you wouldn't have repeated multiple times now your reasons why you wish me to stop using those words, because they upset you.

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 10:08

nicepotoftea · Yesterday 09:55

Regardless of what Christians in general believe, it is clear that AW took the doctrine very seriously. She became a Catholic because she didn't believe in the ordination of women, but she also clearly believed that women should have political power outside the church.

I think you have to accept that some people just take religion seriously and religious beliefs aren't always clear to other people. The orthodox jewish concept of an eruv doesn't make sense to everyone.

She lost on the issue of gay marriage, largely because for most people marriage is now a secular, not a religious concept. That did not stop her from being friends with people who disagreed with her.

Where have I note accepted this...? I assume you skimmed past multiple posts I've made where I don't wish to restrict or limit these people's ability to practice their beliefs. I simply wish to share my opinion as freely as they do?

FlirtsWithRhinos · Yesterday 10:14

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 10:07

It's really not talking in good faith for you to continually try to assign an emotional status to me that isn't there so that you can avoid engaging with my point. I don't feel emotional and my posts aren't emotional. If anything, you keep saying how upset and distraught you are about society so perhaps this is projection on your part? you didn't want to police my language you wouldn't have repeated multiple times now your reasons why you wish me to stop using those words, because they upset you.

Please stop misrepresenting my posts.

It's clear what I have said. It's all there. It is not what you are claiming. If you do not see why, pleae re-read them.

I will not bother replying to you again.

No doubt you will reply and have the last word so you can again misrepresent me. Nevertheless, my posts will stand for what I actually said.

Roxela · Yesterday 10:14

Whisperingwaters · Yesterday 08:04

She absolutely did have views about homosexuality, but a personal desire actively to cure homosexuality or believing that it is learned, is not what she is saying here.

It's exactly what she's saying because by virtue of saying people are entitled to access to conversion therapy in the context of it being prevented (see article) means she thinks it can be 'cured'.

No, it means she thinks people should be able to access therapy if they would prefer to lead a heterosexual life than a homosexual life. I agree that the inplication is that she thinks it is possible to (happily) lead a heterosexual life even if one is same-sex attracted. She is clear that it would only be possible if the person seeking the therapy actually wanted it.

FlirtsWithRhinos · Yesterday 10:22

As a general, societal comment, I just realised (and probably should have done before) how the accusation of "policing language" can be used to deflect a challenge of accuracy.

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 10:25

FlirtsWithRhinos · Yesterday 10:14

Please stop misrepresenting my posts.

It's clear what I have said. It's all there. It is not what you are claiming. If you do not see why, pleae re-read them.

I will not bother replying to you again.

No doubt you will reply and have the last word so you can again misrepresent me. Nevertheless, my posts will stand for what I actually said.

Yes it was very clear when you lectured that I mustn't use these words as they're extremist and adding to division and I'll never change people's minds. Which I explained to you I wasn't on a mission to change these people's minds. You said you were upset at society. Unclear what I've misrepresented there? But flounce if you wish.

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 10:26

FlirtsWithRhinos · Yesterday 10:22

As a general, societal comment, I just realised (and probably should have done before) how the accusation of "policing language" can be used to deflect a challenge of accuracy.

You've been welcome to, but haven't, adequately explain why it's inaccurate for a gay person to perceive homophobia as hateful though not did you adequately explain how the word hateful is an extremist as blatant homophobia..

FlirtsWithRhinos · Yesterday 10:30

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 10:26

You've been welcome to, but haven't, adequately explain why it's inaccurate for a gay person to perceive homophobia as hateful though not did you adequately explain how the word hateful is an extremist as blatant homophobia..

My posts are all there. It is clear that is not what I have said Please stop misrepresenting me.

Whisperingwaters · Yesterday 10:35

Roxela · Yesterday 10:14

No, it means she thinks people should be able to access therapy if they would prefer to lead a heterosexual life than a homosexual life. I agree that the inplication is that she thinks it is possible to (happily) lead a heterosexual life even if one is same-sex attracted. She is clear that it would only be possible if the person seeking the therapy actually wanted it.

You are conveniently ignoring the context of her self written admission which was in support of Lesley Pilkington providing conversion therapy.

"Lesley Pilkington was found to have broken the ethical code of the British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy when she agreed to a request from Patrick Strudwick to help him become a heterosexual."

https://www.express.co.uk/comment/columnists/ann-widdecombe/299271/Helping-those-who-aren-t-glad-to-be-gay

By virtue of being in support of Pilkington to conduct conversion therapy is an admission of its efficacy. And no amount of framing this into an issue about the right to self determination will change this particularly because WE KNOW conversion therapy not only doesn't work but is psychologically harmful.

And don't think this shrewd cynical so & so didn't know exactly what she was doing by exploiting the right to self determination to indulge her gay conversion fantasies.

What's particularly galling is how long standing anti rights proponents suddenly are all about liberty & social justice when convenient. But one only needs to review their track record to comprehend the sincerity of their claims.

Helping those who aren’t glad to be gay, says ANN WIDDECOMBE

ALMOST anybody can get help for anything from psychotherapists in this country except apparently gays who do not want to be gay.

https://www.express.co.uk/comment/columnists/ann-widdecombe/299271/Helping-those-who-aren-t-glad-to-be-gay

TempestTost · Yesterday 10:40

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 09:04

I don't give any weight to catholic opinions on sex, I was raised catholic so I understand the teachings inside out. I think especially after the swathes of sexual abuse and abuse of women the Catholic church allowed they and their followers who still support the church should keep their opinions on everyone else's activities to themselves.

It's pretty evident in this thread that you don't understand Catholic teaching on sex or marriage.

No one is asking you to agree with it either.

However, it's not some random set of pronouncements by "a man in the sky" as you suggested (also a silly thing to say and not reflective of Christian belief.)

It's a pretty coherent approach to controlling and limiting one of the most powerful, and troublesome, natural human drives, as well as making sure the people most often vulnerable to its excesses (mothers and children) are provided for materially and emotionally and socially. And it does that largely by defining the appropriate limit for sexuality as, how many babies are you willing and able to take care of.

That's not random, and it's not an attempt to strip away "rights" it's something else entirely. I've met gay men who believe this, as it happens - that marriage exists to protect women from men, and it's not appropriate for them to try and move in on that. They didn't see it as a "right" but as something quite irrelevant to them as two male people in a sexual relationship.

There is no virtue in deliberately not understanding why people believe what they believe, what their argument and logic is, so that you can call them hateful. It's a cop out ,is what it is. Everyone who thinks differently than me is evil.

How it is the modern left thinks they are tolerant and into "diversity" I have no idea, they are the exact opposite.

nicepotoftea · Yesterday 10:49

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 10:08

Where have I note accepted this...? I assume you skimmed past multiple posts I've made where I don't wish to restrict or limit these people's ability to practice their beliefs. I simply wish to share my opinion as freely as they do?

I've said I find those who obsessed over others lives being against their religion or morality to be hateful and homophobic in a way I find sad for them.

So are you saying that this remark wasn't made with reference to Ann Widdecombe?

TempestTost · Yesterday 10:51

Genericfestiveusername · Yesterday 09:05

And yet those who are so very set on not allowing their fellow Christians who happen to be gay to marry in church have decided these things are a set issue. I think they're hypocritical given not many actually hold the courage of their convictions when it applies to their own religious leaders or institutions.

Where do you get that idea? The nature of marriage is discussed all the time in Christian settings, and it's been pretty robustly challenged and argued within congregations for a few decades now.

That's not the same as saying they, or anyone else, can't come to a conclusion. It is however possible to understand why people come to differernt conclusions and respect that, even while disagreeing.

You seem to be missing this all through the thread - we can have very robust discussions of things lile rights, and we have to. Is marriage an institution for anyone, or only certain people? Should 16 year olds have the right to vote? Can a 13 year old access an abortion without informing the parents she's been raped? Is the right of a woman to make medical decisions more important than the right of a 35 weeks gestation human not to be killed in utero? Do dolphins have human rights? Is the right of a 10 year old to refuse medical treatment more weighty than the right of a parent to insist on a flu vaccination? A polio vaccination. Can humans eat meat, ethically?

All of these things can be discussed and people can come to different conclusions. And "but you are taking away x rights" is not an effective argument in any of these scenarios, it'a logical fallacy really, assuming the consequent, which is to say just assuming that the answer thing you are discussing is what you think it is.

nicepotoftea · Yesterday 10:56

Whisperingwaters · Yesterday 05:53

Of late?

The right to healthcare, privacy, identity, not to be 'othered' & the right to be in public without the very real risk of being abused for starters.

The campaigning for women's private spaces has gone hand in hand with the routine denigrating & slandering of trans women as just degenerate men who want to be able to use women-only spaces unchecked painting trans them as predators instead of just human beings who want to live their lives.

If you think this has no real social consequences I have news.

Edited

What is the right to 'identity?'

What is the right 'not to be othered?'.

Could you refer to the relevant legislation?

(Edited) There is a 'right to health' but in the UK at least the courts can decide what healthcare can be provided and drugs can be banned if it is believed they are harmful.

There is a right to privacy, but it is qualified.

the right to be in public without the very real risk of being abused for starters.

Yes, we all have protection from harassment and abuse.

The campaigning for women's private spaces has gone hand in hand with the routine denigrating & slandering of trans women as just degenerate men

Single sex spaces exclude all people of the opposite sex. There is no distinction between particular types of men.

TempestTost · Yesterday 11:04

The law and behind that, the philosophy of human rights is really quite complex and not as easy and obvious as a lot of people seem to think. It's a huge area with a lot of competing schools of thought and also really difficult problems.

There are even people who argue pretty persuasively that it's not really a very good model for talking about societal obligations to people. Because that's really what it is, a kind of model that we use to talk about something deeper in a way that we can, we hope, systematise.

If disagreement on this stuff means people hate you, we are pretty fucked.

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