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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Right-wing press perpetuating hate over Widdecombe

447 replies

YourHateIsShowing · 16/07/2026 08:41

The Daily Express and others claiming the reaction to Ann Widdecombe’s death has somehow “exposed the left” as hateful, is nonsense as usual.

There is hate on the left. Without question. There’s also hate on the right. There are totally extreme nut jobs on both sides, too. Neither side has a total monopoly on either. But I think it’s pretty lazy to not see past the noise and understand the origin of hatred on any side of conflict. Context is everything. And most can agree with that when it comes to certain situations. As a mother, I understand the hatred a mother would feel towards a drunk driver who ended their child’s life through one careless selfish decision to drive home from the pub intoxicated. Or for worse crimes we know exist. I’m using these examples simply to make the case that our value systems should be consistent. Not to imply the level of harm is the same in all cases. That would be an overreach.

Ann Widdecombe was a deeply controversial politician. She was unapologetic about her views on immigration, LGBTQ+ rights, welfare and poverty. I remember her response when challenged about people who couldn’t afford a cheese sandwich: her answer amounted to, “Don’t have a cheese sandwich then.” I’ve watched her for years as a speaker on right wing conservative talking points; she dedicated her life to politics, but very often in ways that supported the structural degradation of groups of already marginalised people in society. So I loathed what she stood for and I make no secret of that.
And why should others who were actually targeted or harmed by the spread of her views suddenly be expected to pretend she was a saint because of what happened to her? Or be quiet? Widdecombe was anything a saint and anything but quiet throughout her political career. Death doesn’t erase public record.

What I will say though, is this: what happened to her was awful. Abhorrent. What happened was utterly disgusting, AND so were her views on a lot of things. Views that had influence. That doesn’t mean she deserved what happened to her. I feel for her, and her family. She would have been scared. She has my empathy for that. In spades. But I certainly don’t think others who were the focus of her intolerance should be expected to rewrite history or suppress honest criticism of the suffering she supported within society, out of respect for some weird convention that says we should only speak well of the dead. I don’t buy into that.

I’m sure Ann loved her family, had close friends, and watered all her house plants. I don’t see the world in terms of heroes and villains. We can be either at any time under different circumstances. But for those who’ve maybe read 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, you may also find truth in the words of Covey who said “we are what we repeatedly do”. If you repeatedly lie, guess what? You’re a liar.

There’s truth in that, even though I mostly see people on a spectrum and not in the binary. I still see the small compounding decisions they repeatedly make, and more importantly how those decisions impact others. We can also accept conflicting ideas, where good people commit a bad act, for good reason. It’s complicated.
But overall, some people leave the world a tiny bit kinder, fairer and more compassionate as a result of those compounding decisions met with their sphere of influence. Others leave it more divided, more fearful or less equal. Most of us fall somewhere in between. And most have little influence outside our immediate circle.
Ann had more than the average bod, so I hold her and other public figures to a higher standard. She didn’t stack up, for me.

Ann Widdecombe accepted and even defended policy that saw totally unnecessary poverty and hunger (children included), in the 6th richest country in the world. She stood against abortion in cases of rape. And she consistently fought against gay rights. She repeatedly contributed to this. This is who she was. What she stood for. And what those who support her stand for.

So what the right read as hatred among the left today, in the wake of this awful event that brought her world views into sharp focus, I read as an intolerance not of her skin colour, or her sexual orientation, or her nationality, but of all she stood for and against; all she was intolerant of in people without choices.

Karl Popper’s paradox of tolerance explains this best, I think. If you’ve not come across it, it’s essentially characterised by an intolerance of intolerance itself. The difference is this: to be intolerant of someone’s skin colour, ethnicity, or other things they cannot change, such as their sexual orientation, or even level of poverty, certainly if you’re still a child born into it, is not the same as having an intolerance of those who punch down at them from a place of privilege.

Ann Widdecombe was openly homophobic and believed science should one day cure it, as if being gay were a disease to be eradicated. That’s a profound intolerance of something people cannot change. The same cannot be said of a worldview built on prejudice, bigotry or theocratic ideology. Those are beliefs. They’re decisions. They can be questioned, challenged and changed. Even after death. And if she and others like her directed more of their intolerance towards harmful ideas, rather than towards people for who they are, and for that which they cannot change, we’d have less hatred on both sides. But the root of that hatred, is glaringly obvious when you actually take the time to analyse it. Spoiler alert: it’s not coming from the left.

So this headline can get in the bin.
Where it belongs.

Right-wing press perpetuating hate over Widdecombe
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Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 15:49

PaperWalkAndTalk · 16/07/2026 15:45

The accusation is that her views were so extreme that they were so detrimental to gay people, they couldn't have been that detrimental if gay people were happy to be friends with her.

Stonewall were against gay marriage. Yet we have people alleging that opposition to such laws is homophobia.

Whose accusation was that exactly? I said I think they were hateful and homophobic. Gay people can have internalised homophobia just as women can internalise misogyny. You're giving the age old "they have black friends they can't be racist" argument.

Breakfastinthesunshine · 16/07/2026 16:01

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 10:58

I'm not sure I agree that disagreeing with someone's fundamental existence isn't hateful. To me my sexuality isn't an opinion of a lifestyle, it's there whether you live it or not. Disagreeing with something fundamental or suggesting or hoping it should be cured isn't neutral or loving, and is hateful to imo, because its completely rooted in the christian logic of "hating the sin not the sinner" which is how the defenses of her opinions sound here, "she hated my sexuality but not me" and I'm quite surprised that women especially queer women would give such an old fashioned patriarchal agenda the time of day. It's fine to admit her opinions were our of date, completely unfactual discriminatory and hateful without agreeing with murder.

But as far as I’m aware it was gay marriage that Ann was opposed to, not gay people

And this was from a philosophical/religious viewpoint as to what marriage “means”

The Catholic Church states that marriage is for the procreation of children

Im a Catholic and disagree with this, BUT I don’t hate those that do agree with it.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 16/07/2026 16:03

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 15:37

But I haven't objected to them saying it I've simply given my assessment on what they're saying. The difference is, even if I despise what they say.or believe, I wouldn't support any legislation to ban it or to ban their practicing their religion whereas they're actively banning people from equally marrying in a church for example or voting full stop to ban gay marriage. My objection to it is because it's my life and their opinions aren't just opinions they're votes and legislation and political power. Are you confused by why I would disagree with them as a gay woman? Do you think they perhaps their objection to gay people needs self examination given no one is making them being gay or even like it?

If we accept democracy we have to accept that people will vote in a way that we don't approve of. A democracy requires opposing views to be aired before we accept the majority verdict. In the UK, usually described as a representative democracy, it is the decisions of Parliament which dictate what is legal or illegal. Some things are left to organisations to decide; on marriage, we have a civil marriage in law open to everyone, and a historical ability for the CofE to conduct wedding ceremonies and act as registrar, so a religious ceremony with a civil legal aspect. I would consider it governmental overreach to dictate to the CofE that the civil definition of marriage must override the religious definition.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 16/07/2026 16:03

MarieDeGournay
But there's no evidence that she hated lesbian and gay people. Disagreeing with something while not hating the people who do not disagree with it is an important distinction.

In any case, "hate the sin but not the sinner" comes from St. Augustine, I think, and is very often a basic tenet of Christian faith: it fits with "love they neighbour as thyself".

AW was a Roman Catholic, and presumably therefore believed that repentance, confession of sin and making amends for wrongdoing redeems the sinner and brings him or her back to God's grace. So hating anyone, no matter how abhorrent she found something that person had done, would be a sin in her, because it would deny the grace of God for that person. And that I am sure she would see as a terrible thing to do.

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 16:05

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 16/07/2026 16:03

If we accept democracy we have to accept that people will vote in a way that we don't approve of. A democracy requires opposing views to be aired before we accept the majority verdict. In the UK, usually described as a representative democracy, it is the decisions of Parliament which dictate what is legal or illegal. Some things are left to organisations to decide; on marriage, we have a civil marriage in law open to everyone, and a historical ability for the CofE to conduct wedding ceremonies and act as registrar, so a religious ceremony with a civil legal aspect. I would consider it governmental overreach to dictate to the CofE that the civil definition of marriage must override the religious definition.

I'm not sure why you think I don't understand the British political system and need to mansplain to to me simply because I disagree with you. I haven't said these people should not be able to vote in a way I disapprove of either, you are simply debating me needlessly because you don't want me to be able to freely her as homophobic or hateful.

OneQuirkyPanda · 16/07/2026 16:06

PaperWalkAndTalk · 16/07/2026 15:45

The accusation is that her views were so extreme that they were so detrimental to gay people, they couldn't have been that detrimental if gay people were happy to be friends with her.

Stonewall were against gay marriage. Yet we have people alleging that opposition to such laws is homophobia.

Anne was quite clear in her views that gay relationships and families are inferior to heterosexual ones. This was backed by her voting record and her own statements. I’m not sure her having a few gay people who for whatever reason (gay people don’t all think and believe the same thing) were happy to be friends with her means her views and voting record were not harmful to gay people as a whole.

Unless, you think having your relationship and family being viewed and treated legally as inferior or not acceptable/valid is not harmful to someone?

PrizedPickledPopcorn · 16/07/2026 16:07

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 15:03

No, I'm sharing my thoughts on them given that's what the threads about. I completely understand why they think the way they do and I understand their believes so I don't think my assessment is a judgement in the way I'm using the word I.e. judging them as sinful or beneath me or wrong. I don't believe I have the right to tell them what my beliefs are or that my beliefs should dictate their actions or what rights they have. I think they seem very sad. I mean if you wanna get pedantic every opinion is a judgement but you'd have to be deliberately misinterpreting my point out of context....

As I understand it, you have been angry that some Christians resist your desire to extend church marriage between a man and a woman to include same sex couples. Surely that is attempting to dictate their actions and rights and beliefs in much the way you say you aren’t?
I’m an ally, but it’s foolish to forget that there are centuries- millennia- of tradition being overturned. In Ann’s lifetime, I believe same sex relationships have gone from being illegal to acceptable to celebrated as marriages.

ElenOfTheWays · 16/07/2026 16:09

FKAT · 16/07/2026 10:08

pretend that the impact of tiny minorities like trans people or muslim terrorists ... is some sort of existential threat

Did you mean to write that? 😂I can't imagine what's more embarrassing. Pretending that the murderers of hundreds of thousands of innocent people across the globe are not a threat or comparing them to trans people.

Oh I missed that.😮 How transphobic can you get, to compare as equals Islamic terrorists and trans people.

Even the most "Ultra" TERFS never did that. Not even the "Arch TERF" aka JKR

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 16/07/2026 16:09

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 16:05

I'm not sure why you think I don't understand the British political system and need to mansplain to to me simply because I disagree with you. I haven't said these people should not be able to vote in a way I disapprove of either, you are simply debating me needlessly because you don't want me to be able to freely her as homophobic or hateful.

I apologise for mansplaining. It's an ingrained habit I haven't managed to throw off entirely. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your posts, but you appeared to be objecting to people you disagree with having a vote in parliament.

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 16:11

Breakfastinthesunshine · 16/07/2026 16:01

But as far as I’m aware it was gay marriage that Ann was opposed to, not gay people

And this was from a philosophical/religious viewpoint as to what marriage “means”

The Catholic Church states that marriage is for the procreation of children

Im a Catholic and disagree with this, BUT I don’t hate those that do agree with it.

Right, but that is a major part of gay people's lives. I get what you're saying but it's also not reasonable to say gay people shouldn't have a problem with her only having an issue with their rights and not them personally. I've explained why I find it hateful to restrict others lives based on one's own opinions or believes. What the Catholic church states for me as a long ago ex Catholic is like telling me what Mr Bobby thinks marriage means - I really don't care.

GwenPost · 16/07/2026 16:12

@PrizedPickledPopcorn
you're right, i dont know much about the UK church.

My point wasnt about individual Christians unthinkingly accepting the current status quo (i dont believe most of them do) but those who have a part in making the law not thinking outside their religion.

I have nothing but admiration for those in the church trying to change things. They/you are the opposite (of the unthinkers)

edited for clarity

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 16:12

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 16/07/2026 16:09

I apologise for mansplaining. It's an ingrained habit I haven't managed to throw off entirely. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your posts, but you appeared to be objecting to people you disagree with having a vote in parliament.

Could you quote me where I said that? If not you seem to just have a habit of misinterpreting my words to fit your view point. I don't know how many times I've repeated that I don't want to restrict these people's words or actions, I just won't be compelled or instructed on what language I should use in my assessment of them.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 16/07/2026 16:26

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 16:12

Could you quote me where I said that? If not you seem to just have a habit of misinterpreting my words to fit your view point. I don't know how many times I've repeated that I don't want to restrict these people's words or actions, I just won't be compelled or instructed on what language I should use in my assessment of them.

I thought it was implied in "My objection to it is because it's my life and their opinions aren't just opinions they're votes and legislation and political power." I'm glad I was wrong and there was no such implication.

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 16:34

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 16/07/2026 16:26

I thought it was implied in "My objection to it is because it's my life and their opinions aren't just opinions they're votes and legislation and political power." I'm glad I was wrong and there was no such implication.

Even with the very clear sentence before it that I wouldn't want to ban their view impose any legislation to restrict it, and the fact that the context of the thread was that some like AW didn't just have opinions she also had political power, and I stated no where that voting should be banned but you felt it was implied 🤨 sure. A pretty general rule of conversing in good faith is that you don't make assumptions or twist people's words out of context to suggest they imply something different. If you are unsure, you ask someone to clarify there view. I note you completely if ored any of my questions clarifying yours on the rush to twist my words. Are you a Christian man? Is me calling her views homophobic offending you?

ElenOfTheWays · 16/07/2026 16:35

Whisperingwaters · 16/07/2026 10:24

This is showcases an ignorance of power imbalances. History shows the side with no civil options is often going to take an uncivil approach however righteous their cause is. Just ask The Suffragettes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nat_Turner%27s_Rebellion

Except the power imbalance is against women here, not trans identified men - who it seems have only to ask and they shall receive. Presumably because everyone knows they're actually men

There is absolutely NO excuse, therefore, for their constant violent rhetoric and threats towards women who disagree with them. Nor for the actual violence they often commit.

By your measure, however, it would apparently be perfectly acceptable for women who have been ignored, silenced and threatened as our basic rights were stripped away, to take an uncivil approach and fight back using violence
And yet - we didn't
And we're still winning.

Breakfastinthesunshine · 16/07/2026 16:37

@Genericfestiveusername
I suppose that depends on whether marriage in a church should be seen as a “right”

Shortshriftandlethal · 16/07/2026 16:39

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 15:44

I am aware, however whether one approves or disapproves of me having a procedure I may need medically due to ethical or religious reasons makes no difference when they're actively voting against my right because of their own personal considerations. I'm familiar with your views on abortion so I don't want to segue into that. I am not trying to change people's own moral considerations about their own lives I just want them to stay out of mine. I'm still curious to know how my sex life affects you on a micro or macro level and why your moral considerations have anything to do with me.

What are my views on abortion? ( You mean that I think it is ethically and morally important to have some limits?)

The point about some issues, is that they transcend individual rights and have implications for wider society and for where that society draws its boundaries, and as a part of any society we all have to submit our individual urges or desires to the common good, or consensus, on some occasions.

I'm not making this discusson personal to you or your personal circumstances, I'm speaking more generally; and I'd appreciate it if you didn't make personal comments about what you think/assume my particular views are either. I suggest it is better to simply treat this as a discussion about ideas, about principles and about how society manufactures its moral or guiding frameworks.

AccordingToWhom · 16/07/2026 16:40

What does this have to do with Feminism, sex or gender?

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 16:42

Everything we do in pursuit of our own desires impacts others in some way; at both micro and macro levels

@Shortshriftandlethal I'm simply asking you to explain this point you made. There's no reason it shouldn't be applicable to me for the context of this thread and for me to understand your point better, plus if it's everything we do in pursuit of our own desires then this would apply to me and my relationship. I'm genuinely interested to know.

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 16:42

Breakfastinthesunshine · 16/07/2026 16:37

@Genericfestiveusername
I suppose that depends on whether marriage in a church should be seen as a “right”

Well for Christians why shouldn't it be?

Shortshriftandlethal · 16/07/2026 16:48

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 16:42

Everything we do in pursuit of our own desires impacts others in some way; at both micro and macro levels

@Shortshriftandlethal I'm simply asking you to explain this point you made. There's no reason it shouldn't be applicable to me for the context of this thread and for me to understand your point better, plus if it's everything we do in pursuit of our own desires then this would apply to me and my relationship. I'm genuinely interested to know.

I've no idea what it is you are requesting of me. i thought i had made my perspective quite clear.

This exchange started off because i made a point about not making things too personal when it came to differing views and persepctives; in terms of trying to not make value judgments about how 'phobic' or 'hateful' or ill-willed somebody supposedly is based purely on their political or religious views. I think a far better measure of character is to judge people on the way they behave with other people, including and how they speak to and about other people.

i didn't share the exact same views as Ann Widdicombe on any number of issues, but i could see she was a decent human being who spoke her truth with candour, but who didn't let her religious beliefs directly poison her human relations with other people.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 16/07/2026 16:50

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 16:34

Even with the very clear sentence before it that I wouldn't want to ban their view impose any legislation to restrict it, and the fact that the context of the thread was that some like AW didn't just have opinions she also had political power, and I stated no where that voting should be banned but you felt it was implied 🤨 sure. A pretty general rule of conversing in good faith is that you don't make assumptions or twist people's words out of context to suggest they imply something different. If you are unsure, you ask someone to clarify there view. I note you completely if ored any of my questions clarifying yours on the rush to twist my words. Are you a Christian man? Is me calling her views homophobic offending you?

Are you a Christian man? Is me calling her views homophobic offending you?

You know everything you need to know about me, and I am not referring to your assumptions. The juxtaposition of those two sentences I have quoted demonstrates your prejudice, though I don't think you will admit it. I'm not in the slightest offended by anything you have said, by the way. I am politically and philosophically miles away from AW's views, but we need politicians who stand up for their opinions especially in the face of right wing or left wing assumptions. For example, I opposed most of what Norman Tebbitt stood for, but he foresaw the problems that have arisen from the Gender Recognition Act 2004, and I wish that other politicians had listened and understood, rather than dismissing him as an old male reactionary.

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 16:51

Shortshriftandlethal · 16/07/2026 16:48

I've no idea what it is you are requesting of me. i thought i had made my perspective quite clear.

This exchange started off because i made a point about not making things too personal when it came to differing views and persepctives; in terms of trying to not make value judgments about how 'phobic' or 'hateful' or ill-willed somebody supposedly is based purely on their political or religious views. I think a far better measure of character is to judge people on the way they behave with other people, including and how they speak to and about other people.

i didn't share the exact same views as Ann Widdicombe on any number of issues, but i could see she was a decent human being who spoke her truth with candour, but who didn't let her religious beliefs directly poison her human relations with other people.

Edited

You haven't made it at all clear how gay relationships affect everyone on a micro or macro level, given you made this point in response to why it's anyone's business but those in the relationship. To clarify, what I'm requesting is for you to explain this in more detail.

I think a far better measure of character is to judge people on the way they behave with other people, including and how they speak to and about other people.

I think that's exactly what a lot of people are skint with homophobes of they behave in a way that wishes to or acts to restrict the freedom of others based on beliefs they hold about their own religion or morals, and when they talk about people's relationships being unnatural or wrong or not within God's preference.

Genericfestiveusername · 16/07/2026 16:56

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 16/07/2026 16:50

Are you a Christian man? Is me calling her views homophobic offending you?

You know everything you need to know about me, and I am not referring to your assumptions. The juxtaposition of those two sentences I have quoted demonstrates your prejudice, though I don't think you will admit it. I'm not in the slightest offended by anything you have said, by the way. I am politically and philosophically miles away from AW's views, but we need politicians who stand up for their opinions especially in the face of right wing or left wing assumptions. For example, I opposed most of what Norman Tebbitt stood for, but he foresaw the problems that have arisen from the Gender Recognition Act 2004, and I wish that other politicians had listened and understood, rather than dismissing him as an old male reactionary.

I was trying to understand why you're so defensive of free speech (great so am I) while "misinterpreting" and quoting my words without context as though you're not as supportive of me calling people hateful or homophobic as much as you support their right to say gay is wrong. I don't come on Mumsnet to engage with men, I responded to you twice to correct where you were twisting my words out of context. You haven't engaged in very good faith so I'm not super interested in your political or philosophical views sorry!

ShutupLwren · 16/07/2026 17:01

This thread might be the only time I’ve commented on Ann’s murder. As a lefty I’d have disagreed with Ann a lot politically but as a woman it breaks my heart to know that her courageous actions and her passion and spirit will be forever remembered secondary to a pathetic little man who murdered an elderly woman. She was a big character, fearless in the face of debate. How dare some spineless bastard target such a vulnerable older woman and murder her so brutally. I hope people don’t remember Ann as a victim of murder. I hope they remember her as a woman with tremendous courage and a strong force to be reckoned with. And her strictly performances.
No woman should die at the hands of a man and no politically disagreement should ever mean you celebrate that. I hope she rests in peace and if given the opportunity, haunts mick philpot. RIP Ann.