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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Right-wing press perpetuating hate over Widdecombe

446 replies

YourHateIsShowing · Yesterday 08:41

The Daily Express and others claiming the reaction to Ann Widdecombe’s death has somehow “exposed the left” as hateful, is nonsense as usual.

There is hate on the left. Without question. There’s also hate on the right. There are totally extreme nut jobs on both sides, too. Neither side has a total monopoly on either. But I think it’s pretty lazy to not see past the noise and understand the origin of hatred on any side of conflict. Context is everything. And most can agree with that when it comes to certain situations. As a mother, I understand the hatred a mother would feel towards a drunk driver who ended their child’s life through one careless selfish decision to drive home from the pub intoxicated. Or for worse crimes we know exist. I’m using these examples simply to make the case that our value systems should be consistent. Not to imply the level of harm is the same in all cases. That would be an overreach.

Ann Widdecombe was a deeply controversial politician. She was unapologetic about her views on immigration, LGBTQ+ rights, welfare and poverty. I remember her response when challenged about people who couldn’t afford a cheese sandwich: her answer amounted to, “Don’t have a cheese sandwich then.” I’ve watched her for years as a speaker on right wing conservative talking points; she dedicated her life to politics, but very often in ways that supported the structural degradation of groups of already marginalised people in society. So I loathed what she stood for and I make no secret of that.
And why should others who were actually targeted or harmed by the spread of her views suddenly be expected to pretend she was a saint because of what happened to her? Or be quiet? Widdecombe was anything a saint and anything but quiet throughout her political career. Death doesn’t erase public record.

What I will say though, is this: what happened to her was awful. Abhorrent. What happened was utterly disgusting, AND so were her views on a lot of things. Views that had influence. That doesn’t mean she deserved what happened to her. I feel for her, and her family. She would have been scared. She has my empathy for that. In spades. But I certainly don’t think others who were the focus of her intolerance should be expected to rewrite history or suppress honest criticism of the suffering she supported within society, out of respect for some weird convention that says we should only speak well of the dead. I don’t buy into that.

I’m sure Ann loved her family, had close friends, and watered all her house plants. I don’t see the world in terms of heroes and villains. We can be either at any time under different circumstances. But for those who’ve maybe read 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, you may also find truth in the words of Covey who said “we are what we repeatedly do”. If you repeatedly lie, guess what? You’re a liar.

There’s truth in that, even though I mostly see people on a spectrum and not in the binary. I still see the small compounding decisions they repeatedly make, and more importantly how those decisions impact others. We can also accept conflicting ideas, where good people commit a bad act, for good reason. It’s complicated.
But overall, some people leave the world a tiny bit kinder, fairer and more compassionate as a result of those compounding decisions met with their sphere of influence. Others leave it more divided, more fearful or less equal. Most of us fall somewhere in between. And most have little influence outside our immediate circle.
Ann had more than the average bod, so I hold her and other public figures to a higher standard. She didn’t stack up, for me.

Ann Widdecombe accepted and even defended policy that saw totally unnecessary poverty and hunger (children included), in the 6th richest country in the world. She stood against abortion in cases of rape. And she consistently fought against gay rights. She repeatedly contributed to this. This is who she was. What she stood for. And what those who support her stand for.

So what the right read as hatred among the left today, in the wake of this awful event that brought her world views into sharp focus, I read as an intolerance not of her skin colour, or her sexual orientation, or her nationality, but of all she stood for and against; all she was intolerant of in people without choices.

Karl Popper’s paradox of tolerance explains this best, I think. If you’ve not come across it, it’s essentially characterised by an intolerance of intolerance itself. The difference is this: to be intolerant of someone’s skin colour, ethnicity, or other things they cannot change, such as their sexual orientation, or even level of poverty, certainly if you’re still a child born into it, is not the same as having an intolerance of those who punch down at them from a place of privilege.

Ann Widdecombe was openly homophobic and believed science should one day cure it, as if being gay were a disease to be eradicated. That’s a profound intolerance of something people cannot change. The same cannot be said of a worldview built on prejudice, bigotry or theocratic ideology. Those are beliefs. They’re decisions. They can be questioned, challenged and changed. Even after death. And if she and others like her directed more of their intolerance towards harmful ideas, rather than towards people for who they are, and for that which they cannot change, we’d have less hatred on both sides. But the root of that hatred, is glaringly obvious when you actually take the time to analyse it. Spoiler alert: it’s not coming from the left.

So this headline can get in the bin.
Where it belongs.

Right-wing press perpetuating hate over Widdecombe
OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
1984Now · Yesterday 08:48

Sounds like the same narrative for Charlie Kirk murder. That he was hateful, intolerant, bigoted. Nothing justified his being killed, but don't forget just how hateful he was.
I pretty much opposed everything Peter Tatchell said in public about women and trans and his attitudes on liberalizing certain sexual relationships, but I wouldn't express any prevarication if he was bludgeoned to death. That would be wrong. End of.

Chersfrozenface · Yesterday 08:50

OP advocating political murder. Good to know.

hethor · Yesterday 08:51

Chersfrozenface · Yesterday 08:50

OP advocating political murder. Good to know.

Only of people whose views she disapproves of though

Chersfrozenface · Yesterday 08:52

hethor · Yesterday 08:51

Only of people whose views she disapproves of though

Makes the user name a tad ironic.

YourHateIsShowing · Yesterday 08:53

Chersfrozenface · Yesterday 08:50

OP advocating political murder. Good to know.

You have, I fear, rather missed the point of my post.

But thank you for contributing.

OP posts:
CassOle · Yesterday 08:56

It is sometimes useful to look at the other posts made by the OP. I think this is one of those times.

bladada · Yesterday 08:57

YourHateIsShowing · Yesterday 08:41

The Daily Express and others claiming the reaction to Ann Widdecombe’s death has somehow “exposed the left” as hateful, is nonsense as usual.

There is hate on the left. Without question. There’s also hate on the right. There are totally extreme nut jobs on both sides, too. Neither side has a total monopoly on either. But I think it’s pretty lazy to not see past the noise and understand the origin of hatred on any side of conflict. Context is everything. And most can agree with that when it comes to certain situations. As a mother, I understand the hatred a mother would feel towards a drunk driver who ended their child’s life through one careless selfish decision to drive home from the pub intoxicated. Or for worse crimes we know exist. I’m using these examples simply to make the case that our value systems should be consistent. Not to imply the level of harm is the same in all cases. That would be an overreach.

Ann Widdecombe was a deeply controversial politician. She was unapologetic about her views on immigration, LGBTQ+ rights, welfare and poverty. I remember her response when challenged about people who couldn’t afford a cheese sandwich: her answer amounted to, “Don’t have a cheese sandwich then.” I’ve watched her for years as a speaker on right wing conservative talking points; she dedicated her life to politics, but very often in ways that supported the structural degradation of groups of already marginalised people in society. So I loathed what she stood for and I make no secret of that.
And why should others who were actually targeted or harmed by the spread of her views suddenly be expected to pretend she was a saint because of what happened to her? Or be quiet? Widdecombe was anything a saint and anything but quiet throughout her political career. Death doesn’t erase public record.

What I will say though, is this: what happened to her was awful. Abhorrent. What happened was utterly disgusting, AND so were her views on a lot of things. Views that had influence. That doesn’t mean she deserved what happened to her. I feel for her, and her family. She would have been scared. She has my empathy for that. In spades. But I certainly don’t think others who were the focus of her intolerance should be expected to rewrite history or suppress honest criticism of the suffering she supported within society, out of respect for some weird convention that says we should only speak well of the dead. I don’t buy into that.

I’m sure Ann loved her family, had close friends, and watered all her house plants. I don’t see the world in terms of heroes and villains. We can be either at any time under different circumstances. But for those who’ve maybe read 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, you may also find truth in the words of Covey who said “we are what we repeatedly do”. If you repeatedly lie, guess what? You’re a liar.

There’s truth in that, even though I mostly see people on a spectrum and not in the binary. I still see the small compounding decisions they repeatedly make, and more importantly how those decisions impact others. We can also accept conflicting ideas, where good people commit a bad act, for good reason. It’s complicated.
But overall, some people leave the world a tiny bit kinder, fairer and more compassionate as a result of those compounding decisions met with their sphere of influence. Others leave it more divided, more fearful or less equal. Most of us fall somewhere in between. And most have little influence outside our immediate circle.
Ann had more than the average bod, so I hold her and other public figures to a higher standard. She didn’t stack up, for me.

Ann Widdecombe accepted and even defended policy that saw totally unnecessary poverty and hunger (children included), in the 6th richest country in the world. She stood against abortion in cases of rape. And she consistently fought against gay rights. She repeatedly contributed to this. This is who she was. What she stood for. And what those who support her stand for.

So what the right read as hatred among the left today, in the wake of this awful event that brought her world views into sharp focus, I read as an intolerance not of her skin colour, or her sexual orientation, or her nationality, but of all she stood for and against; all she was intolerant of in people without choices.

Karl Popper’s paradox of tolerance explains this best, I think. If you’ve not come across it, it’s essentially characterised by an intolerance of intolerance itself. The difference is this: to be intolerant of someone’s skin colour, ethnicity, or other things they cannot change, such as their sexual orientation, or even level of poverty, certainly if you’re still a child born into it, is not the same as having an intolerance of those who punch down at them from a place of privilege.

Ann Widdecombe was openly homophobic and believed science should one day cure it, as if being gay were a disease to be eradicated. That’s a profound intolerance of something people cannot change. The same cannot be said of a worldview built on prejudice, bigotry or theocratic ideology. Those are beliefs. They’re decisions. They can be questioned, challenged and changed. Even after death. And if she and others like her directed more of their intolerance towards harmful ideas, rather than towards people for who they are, and for that which they cannot change, we’d have less hatred on both sides. But the root of that hatred, is glaringly obvious when you actually take the time to analyse it. Spoiler alert: it’s not coming from the left.

So this headline can get in the bin.
Where it belongs.

Go hang your head in shame for this lengthy and spurious leftwashing.

She just had political opinions, and it’s still legal in this country to disagree with you afaik, can you effing stop with this imbued sense of moral superiority and the extreme aggressiveness/hatred towards anyone who doesn’t exactly toe your line.

That’s what caused her death. That is a lot more violent and dangerous than a catholic 78 old woman politically disagreeing on gay marriage.

FFS

Screamingabdabz · Yesterday 08:57

Your post is abhorrent. But Ann Widdecombe would have absolutely fought for your right to say it.

ALovelyPinkUnicorn · Yesterday 08:58

YourHateIsShowing · Yesterday 08:53

You have, I fear, rather missed the point of my post.

But thank you for contributing.

Your point is And why should others who were actually targeted or harmed by the spread of her views suddenly be expected to pretend she was a saint because of what happened to her? Or be quiet? Widdecombe was anything a saint and anything but quiet throughout her political career. Death doesn’t erase public record.

so you are advocating that those like the fragrant Aberdeen Uni staff member is right in their stance?

and what concrete actual examples do you have of actual
harm to people or who were targeted because of expressly what AW said?
If anything has occurred, why does your stance of
”shouldn’t be quiet” not be for them too?

PrizedPickledPopcorn · Yesterday 08:59

I disagree.
I think people can hold opinions that harm individuals but are good for wider society.
I think people can have an opinion that is totally contrary to someone else’s, yet still be a good friend to them and protect them from specific harms.

I don’t agree with any of her policies, but I can understand why in her position at that time, it appeared to be right to her.

Above all, I reject the idea that she could have achieved anything as an individual, unless she was representing a wider agreement. Her opinions/policies had traction in wider society and among politicians.

ButFirstTea · Yesterday 09:00

Chersfrozenface · Yesterday 08:50

OP advocating political murder. Good to know.

Where?

WiddleWaWa · Yesterday 09:03

The same people that are calling out Ann for being 'homophobic/transphobic/biggoted' for her Christian beliefs are waving Palestine flags at Pro muslim rallies.
Make that make sense.

It seems that its only unacceptable to have strong religious convictions if you're an elderly white woman. Muslim men crack on with your subjugation of women, homophobia, transphobia and misogyny.

hethor · Yesterday 09:06

ButFirstTea · Yesterday 09:00

Where?

Here: What happened was utterly disgusting, AND so were her views on a lot of things

ButFirstTea · Yesterday 09:08

hethor · Yesterday 09:06

Here: What happened was utterly disgusting, AND so were her views on a lot of things

What you've quoted is in no way advocating for murder? It says two things are disgusting, one of those things being the murder itself?

Whisperingwaters · Yesterday 09:17

YourHateIsShowing · Yesterday 08:41

The Daily Express and others claiming the reaction to Ann Widdecombe’s death has somehow “exposed the left” as hateful, is nonsense as usual.

There is hate on the left. Without question. There’s also hate on the right. There are totally extreme nut jobs on both sides, too. Neither side has a total monopoly on either. But I think it’s pretty lazy to not see past the noise and understand the origin of hatred on any side of conflict. Context is everything. And most can agree with that when it comes to certain situations. As a mother, I understand the hatred a mother would feel towards a drunk driver who ended their child’s life through one careless selfish decision to drive home from the pub intoxicated. Or for worse crimes we know exist. I’m using these examples simply to make the case that our value systems should be consistent. Not to imply the level of harm is the same in all cases. That would be an overreach.

Ann Widdecombe was a deeply controversial politician. She was unapologetic about her views on immigration, LGBTQ+ rights, welfare and poverty. I remember her response when challenged about people who couldn’t afford a cheese sandwich: her answer amounted to, “Don’t have a cheese sandwich then.” I’ve watched her for years as a speaker on right wing conservative talking points; she dedicated her life to politics, but very often in ways that supported the structural degradation of groups of already marginalised people in society. So I loathed what she stood for and I make no secret of that.
And why should others who were actually targeted or harmed by the spread of her views suddenly be expected to pretend she was a saint because of what happened to her? Or be quiet? Widdecombe was anything a saint and anything but quiet throughout her political career. Death doesn’t erase public record.

What I will say though, is this: what happened to her was awful. Abhorrent. What happened was utterly disgusting, AND so were her views on a lot of things. Views that had influence. That doesn’t mean she deserved what happened to her. I feel for her, and her family. She would have been scared. She has my empathy for that. In spades. But I certainly don’t think others who were the focus of her intolerance should be expected to rewrite history or suppress honest criticism of the suffering she supported within society, out of respect for some weird convention that says we should only speak well of the dead. I don’t buy into that.

I’m sure Ann loved her family, had close friends, and watered all her house plants. I don’t see the world in terms of heroes and villains. We can be either at any time under different circumstances. But for those who’ve maybe read 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, you may also find truth in the words of Covey who said “we are what we repeatedly do”. If you repeatedly lie, guess what? You’re a liar.

There’s truth in that, even though I mostly see people on a spectrum and not in the binary. I still see the small compounding decisions they repeatedly make, and more importantly how those decisions impact others. We can also accept conflicting ideas, where good people commit a bad act, for good reason. It’s complicated.
But overall, some people leave the world a tiny bit kinder, fairer and more compassionate as a result of those compounding decisions met with their sphere of influence. Others leave it more divided, more fearful or less equal. Most of us fall somewhere in between. And most have little influence outside our immediate circle.
Ann had more than the average bod, so I hold her and other public figures to a higher standard. She didn’t stack up, for me.

Ann Widdecombe accepted and even defended policy that saw totally unnecessary poverty and hunger (children included), in the 6th richest country in the world. She stood against abortion in cases of rape. And she consistently fought against gay rights. She repeatedly contributed to this. This is who she was. What she stood for. And what those who support her stand for.

So what the right read as hatred among the left today, in the wake of this awful event that brought her world views into sharp focus, I read as an intolerance not of her skin colour, or her sexual orientation, or her nationality, but of all she stood for and against; all she was intolerant of in people without choices.

Karl Popper’s paradox of tolerance explains this best, I think. If you’ve not come across it, it’s essentially characterised by an intolerance of intolerance itself. The difference is this: to be intolerant of someone’s skin colour, ethnicity, or other things they cannot change, such as their sexual orientation, or even level of poverty, certainly if you’re still a child born into it, is not the same as having an intolerance of those who punch down at them from a place of privilege.

Ann Widdecombe was openly homophobic and believed science should one day cure it, as if being gay were a disease to be eradicated. That’s a profound intolerance of something people cannot change. The same cannot be said of a worldview built on prejudice, bigotry or theocratic ideology. Those are beliefs. They’re decisions. They can be questioned, challenged and changed. Even after death. And if she and others like her directed more of their intolerance towards harmful ideas, rather than towards people for who they are, and for that which they cannot change, we’d have less hatred on both sides. But the root of that hatred, is glaringly obvious when you actually take the time to analyse it. Spoiler alert: it’s not coming from the left.

So this headline can get in the bin.
Where it belongs.

BRAVO!

There's a saying:

People write their own eulogies when they are alive.

This whole both sidesism is just a ruse to obscure the obvious imbalance in consequences between the right & left. To pretend that the impact of tiny minorities like trans people or muslim terrorists & trivialities like pronouns & not being able to blurt hate speech at others at will is some sort of existential threat that's on par with the decimation of civil & economic liberty is ridiculous.

And fancy the most hate filled media outlets that have loudly championed uncivil speech aka as free speech absolutism now crying about its proliferation?

You reap what you sow.

YourHateIsShowing · Yesterday 09:17

hethor · Yesterday 09:06

Here: What happened was utterly disgusting, AND so were her views on a lot of things

I'm not entirely convinced you've read the same words I wrote.

I don't think I've advocated for murder at all; political or otherwise. Or, indeed, made any attempt to justify this particular murder.
Further, I called out what happened to her as abhorrent and that my empathy went out to her for the fear she must have felt.
I'd like to think that, by any reasonable measure, I've made all that pretty clear.

But my post isn't about the question of whether this murder, or any murder, is justified based on the degree of moral stance of the victim. I will say it again, clearly for you as I think it will really help, no murder is justified.

OP posts:
WiddleWaWa · Yesterday 09:19

Ann W : Doesn't support gay marriage, but has gay friends. Wouldn't attend a gay civil ceremony but her secretary accidently CC'd the grooms into a conversation where AW asked her secretary to refuse the invitation as kindly as possible as she didn't want to hurt their feelings.

This woman stood by her convictions but was not hateful.

Hateful would be to say that gay people should be put to death. Again, see how long a gay couple last in Palestine.

The hypocrisy from the left is just unbelievable.

And there is always that famous 'BUT'
Charlie Kirk didn't deserve to die BUT
Ann W didn't deserve to die BUT

But what? BUT WHAT?

There is no but. That is the full sentance. Nobody deserves to die for having an opinion or a belief.

And those are the KINDER lefties. The radical ones are openly rejoicing in the violent murder of a frail old woman in her own home! (Yes Mr Heather Uni loony I am looking at you)

Funny how the left and their Transwomen take womens spaces. Take their awards. Take their safety in private spaces. Bring drag queens into kids librarys and schools. Dress like dogs on leads at FAMILY pride in full leather. Have men invade womens Prisons. Hospitals wards etc... and nobody on the right says 'they don't deserve to be killed BUT'

The left and the men that perpetuate this farce are cauing genuine physical and mental harm to women and children and that is seen as a lesser crime (or no crime at all) but when women/men speak out against it, its somehow an understandable consequence of that, that they might be VIOLENTLY KILLED and thats just something they should consider before voicing their opinions

ITS SICKENING

hethor · Yesterday 09:22

YourHateIsShowing · Yesterday 09:17

I'm not entirely convinced you've read the same words I wrote.

I don't think I've advocated for murder at all; political or otherwise. Or, indeed, made any attempt to justify this particular murder.
Further, I called out what happened to her as abhorrent and that my empathy went out to her for the fear she must have felt.
I'd like to think that, by any reasonable measure, I've made all that pretty clear.

But my post isn't about the question of whether this murder, or any murder, is justified based on the degree of moral stance of the victim. I will say it again, clearly for you as I think it will really help, no murder is justified.

What you said was that AW holding some views you disagreed with was morally equivalent to murdering someone. I think that's despicable.

PrizedPickledPopcorn · Yesterday 09:24

@YourHateIsShowing your name is accurate, from my perspective.

You equated her opinions and values to the bludgeoning to death of a 78 yr old public servant. You think her views were the equivalent of brutal murder? Your hate is showing indeed.

“What happened was utterly disgusting, AND so were her views on a lot of things”

ALovelyPinkUnicorn · Yesterday 09:24

Whisperingwaters · Yesterday 09:17

BRAVO!

There's a saying:

People write their own eulogies when they are alive.

This whole both sidesism is just a ruse to obscure the obvious imbalance in consequences between the right & left. To pretend that the impact of tiny minorities like trans people or muslim terrorists & trivialities like pronouns & not being able to blurt hate speech at others at will is some sort of existential threat that's on par with the decimation of civil & economic liberty is ridiculous.

And fancy the most hate filled media outlets that have loudly championed uncivil speech aka as free speech absolutism now crying about its proliferation?

You reap what you sow.

@Whisperingwaters you reap what you sow-
so are you of the thoughts that TRAs should
-die in a grease fire
-be beheaded
-be raped with baseball bats with barbed wire then?

Justme56 · Yesterday 09:29

She was a 78 old woman who was murdered in her own home. She’s dead. She’s not going to hear any of this but her family and friends will see this constant ‘blah blah blah!’ It’s those people who have to put up with it. Leave them be to grieve for their loss.

Whisperingwaters · Yesterday 09:36

ALovelyPinkUnicorn · Yesterday 09:24

@Whisperingwaters you reap what you sow-
so are you of the thoughts that TRAs should
-die in a grease fire
-be beheaded
-be raped with baseball bats with barbed wire then?

And just who is responsible for the public discourse deteriorating to such an extent?

A toxic combination of a steady diet of dehumanisation & demonisation that passes for 'free speech' these days teamed with a removal of rights isn't going to end in kumbaya.

Its going to end in escalation. Injustice breeds vigilantism & violence. Hate breeds hate. So pointing the finger at the consequences does nothing to fix the solution.

Ipsevenenabibas · Yesterday 09:37

We live in an era where the least succesful, most chronically online social outcasts have loud voices that are heard now. It’s made abnormal, frankly degenerate, behaviours completely normal. There's a sad irony to the fact that the #bekind mob are the least kind and most intolerant people going. Ann Widdicombe's opinions stemmed from her Catholic faith. She was unswerving in her convictions and traditional values and for that I admired her greatly. I am saddened by her murder and disgusted by the online response. I really wish people would remember that if you having nothing good to say than it is best to say nothing at all.

Requiem aeternam dona ei, Domine, et lux perpetua luceat ei. Requiescat in pace.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · Yesterday 09:38

It is important that in Parliament unpopular opinions are expressed, because if they are not, we will get laws solely based on the zeitgeist. We see this most clearly with controversial proposals, such as "Assisted Dying" and "Conversion Practices". Both of those ethical minefields are too close to home for my comfort. Both are areas where to some extent I can see both sides. Both are very deeply worrying because of the awful effects of getting legislation wrong. Widdecombe expressed views that were unpopular, and was uncompromising in standing up for her principles, to the extent that she appeared to lack empathy, and yet she was personally supportive to some people who had very different principles.

I do think she lacked understanding of what life is like for struggling people in poverty traps, but I think that was down to limited personal experience in life rather than actually being unable to empathise.

Seethlaw · Yesterday 09:43

Whisperingwaters · Yesterday 09:36

And just who is responsible for the public discourse deteriorating to such an extent?

A toxic combination of a steady diet of dehumanisation & demonisation that passes for 'free speech' these days teamed with a removal of rights isn't going to end in kumbaya.

Its going to end in escalation. Injustice breeds vigilantism & violence. Hate breeds hate. So pointing the finger at the consequences does nothing to fix the solution.

Edited

And just who is responsible for the public discourse deteriorating to such an extent?

The TRAs.

A toxic combination of a steady diet of dehumanisation & demonisation

The only people who've been systematically dehumanised are women.
And the only ones who've been systematically demonised are GC people.

teamed with a removal of rights

Trans people have not lost any rights.

Its going to end in escalation. Injustice breeds vigilantism & violence. Hate breeds hate.

TRAs are the only ones wishing and acting for this escalation. Women and GC people don't. So if it does escalate, it'll be clear where it comes from.

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