How trans people feel about correct-sex toilets, in their own words

[MyAmpleSheep]

This is an interesting Reddit thread where members of the trans community write about how they feel about not using wrong-sex bathrooms toilets facilities. (The original question doesn’t say toilets, but that’s how most responders have interpreted it, I think).

https://tinyurl.com/musmm897

There’s a mix of responses, some activist, some self-pitying, some stories that are sad. Genuinely useful and thought-provoking to read what people say.

I can’t very much influence how people should post here, but it would be very easy to only to highlight or mock the more unreasonable responses in that thread. Perhaps I’m allowed to ask Mumsnet posters to be thoughtful, though?

"If the sex of the person in the next cubicle doesn't matter, then why can't they use the mens?"

Always a good question, Wallace. I look forward to the coherent answer.

The mum of the baby was a newly delurked MNer too.

Thought-provoking?

Na. Selfish naval gazing without any respect for the opposite sex and their dignity, privacy and safety.

The answer remains

NO.

@WallaceinAnderland , that meme is just perfect. Chef's kiss, my friend.

When I first saw “Fascist Baby”, I thought it might be an identity like furries, fluffies and the like.

Indeed. If they really thought they were women, they'd use that word for us and for them, but they don't, so they know they are not the same as us.

Yes.
Plan A: Tail wags dog.
Plan B: Dog in manger.

@MyAmpleSheep Do you mean as "thoughtful" as trans people and their allies have been towards the traumatised girls and young women I know who cannot share intimate spaces with men? Or towards the girl, later young woman, who spent some time in prison? Or towards the disabled girl who gave up a hobby because she struggled with pronoun use and was aggressively corrected?

I don't wish any harm on anyone, and I am aware that many trans people are vulnerable, but I would like women to be shown the same kindness - because that is what you are truly asking for, aren't you? We are all constantly thinking here.

Realistically some/many TIMs will continue invading womens spaces unless its enforced under law like Florida or other bathroom-bill states. They get removed and fined or prosecuted and I don't see police spending time on that.

These men stole our stuff. They didn’t give a shit about the impact on women, in fact they were often absolutely gleeful about our distress.

so no, I don’t give a single fuck that they are sad they have been told they can’t keep the stuff they stole.

It will be up to the service providers to remove them. If service providers won't remove them then women will have to sue the service providers.

Always worth bearing in mind for those who haven't heard of the whole 'facist baby' thing that Kavanagh was at point employed as a staffer to Lloyd Russell-Moyle, a man who displayed deliberately intimidating behaviour towards Miriam Cates within the debating chamber of the House of Commons because Cates dared to point out the (very obvious) issues with self id and who also very reluctantly issued an apology to JKR after accusing her of weaponising her own experience of being sexually assulted.

Are you familiar with the legal definition of harassment in U.K. law?

I can assure you I would be harassed as per that definition having a man in the same single sex space, such as a toilet.

I want to live à quiet life and just use the toilet when I’m out. I won’t be able to do so if there’s a man in there.

I am disabled. Everyone knows I am the minute I use the disabled loos. I’d rather not to have to out myself as disabled to every sod who sees me walking with sticks and / or in my chair and/or going to the disabled loos

I am a rape victim. My work has unisex loos - three on every floor. In order to make my life easier, off their own bats, my colleagues put a sign for male, female and disabled on the ones on my floor. I’d rather they didn’t know what haooened to me. But thems the breaks. I had to tell work to keep me safe.

why are trans individuals so different to me? Why is ok for me to be outed as disabled for eg, but not for them to be outed as trans?

Bannatyne is the only one who have said unequivocably they will and had done long before SC ruling. How many others?

Thing is, I do sympathize with people who are worried for their safety. What bothers me though is that I don't see anywhere even the slightest shred of consideration for all the women who are worried for their safety with males in their spaces. It is extremely hard to see one group asking for support while simultaneously seeming not to care in the slightest about another group who also needs support for the exact same thing, but in the other direction.

A goodly chunk of TW are plain men with no modifications they are at no greater danger than a whole host of other men in the mens. Small men, boys, old men, ill men etc are at greater risk that a standard man in a dress. Should we welcome them all into the ladies?

We could have a 'lads, lads lads' toilet and an 'others' toilet. Or we could stick to single sex and ask the 'lads' to be kind.

Fully agree, if males who identify as females are at risk in male only spaces, which I do believe is a possibility in some places, then the onus and pressure should be on men to be more open, accepting, and less abusive. It shouldn't be on women to sacrifice their sense of safety in female spaces. Women sacrifice enough already.

The fundamental issue seems to be that gender neutral spaces are unacceptable and trigger dysphoria because they don't want to be reminded that other people don't see them as they see themselves. Plus, use of single sex spaces in line with their preferred gender is a big part of their affirmation needs. That's hard, but it isn't sufficient reason for women to have to allow men in their single sex spaces. More unisex spaces and a concerted campaign for trans allies to use them so that trans people don't feel othered would seem to be the best compromise. But as we know, no compromise is ever acceptable, so I'm not minded to spend too much time on solving their problem tbh

Its in essence what ST has been in court over the past couple of weeks.

That yes, other people might have rights in law, but this shouldn't matter and those people and their rights should be subordinated because equality is just too painful to be tolerated by a man with trans identity.

In essence that any reminder that he is not of the female sex is too painful to subject him to. (And what he subjects women to by extension is irrelevant and wholly unimportant.)

It's an interesting theory, I'm glad ST is testing it out in law.

On reflection it reminds me a bit of the old trope that women just get colds, while in men it's terrible flu.

In general, from my own experience and anecdotal evidence, non-binary people just want more gender-neutral facilities available alongside men's, women's, and disabled/accessible! Not removing or re-designating any existing facilities- and when they do it's always the women's, of course, though that's no surprise- but in new buildings and where possible, it'd be great to have a gender-neutral option.

I actually went into a gender neutral toilet in a café earlier yoday. How many woman points have I lost?

All of them.

Why? What’s the point in an extra toilet or changing space? It doesn’t change two facts:

1 - there are still only two sexes, female and male, and we excrete/secrete/whatever with our sexed bodies. Not with our internal senses of self.

2 - women and children are more vulnerable in mixed-sex spaces. The majority of cases of assault or voyeurism in changing rooms occur in mixed-sex spaces, the overwhelming majority of victims are women and children, and the overwhelming majority of perpetrators are men.

Well, all of them, eventually. As we're proving one Employment Tribunal at a time.

It won't be long before the fear of significant legal and financial penalties has the big employers and service providers reverting to single sex provisions.

Commitment to 'trans inclusion' is very dependent on economic conditions. Just look at all the companies rainbow washing through June in the UK that are silent in China, Africa and the Middle East.