Is advocating the ridicule and scaring of trans-identifying children deeply concerning?

[Whatchamacallitt]

The full post can be seen here.

The first reaction should always be ridicule, denial of the demand and an adult response so scary, from the home to the school to society in general, that never again will a child make the statement of cult initiation... "I am Trans/Non-binary". That point of declaration is the death of childhood in the most brutal way possible, our response should be equally brutal.

Am I the only one that finds this response extremely disturbing? Trans-identifying children are deeply vulnerable with high rates of abuse, living in care and being autistic or homosexual. How could ridicule and being 'scary' possibly have a positive effect in that situation? This just seems outright abusive to me.

What trans-identifying children need is kindness, empathy and honesty about the immutable nature of their sex. They need an adult they can open up to and discuss the factors that have led to them rejecting their healthy body. Bullying it out of them will never work and only lead to them being more isolated and disturbed.

Redefining terms again, I see.

The idea that parents & people in medical authority are "telling" children to choose a life of objective social & medical struggle is preposterous because there simply are zero incentives to do so.

Demonstrably false. Being trans is 'in' and fashionable and high status, and you clearly haven't heard of munchausen by proxy. There are parents that will harm their child for attention and status.

No it is not a 'state of mind', you simply made that up on the spot, and it's completely ridiculous.

No, we have very clear definitions for the words women and men and they are based on biology. You (and I mean you, not a generalized you) are in no position to change this definition as much as that might annoy you.

When women fought for the right to wear trousers, they were told that it made them men, they were banned from school/work etc. They still did it, and remained women.

If men want to wear skirts, they can. I guarantee they won't have anywhere near the abuse women got, because society has moved on, even if the number of tubes men wear on their legs hasn't.

You don't actually mean gender conformity/non-conformity though - you aren't saying that men want to wear skirts just to wear skirts

You're saying that men want to wear skirts to look like women - ie. you're on the side of the gender conformists abusing women for wearing trousers in the 40s and 50s (and 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s TBH - in formal wear at least).

Women have moved on. Men need to move on too. Fashion doesn't change your sex.

And the fetishists don't want to pass. They want people to notice and be uncomfortable - that's the point.

Definitions rely on social usage which in case you don't understand means they are subject to cultural fluidity.

woman
noun
uk
/ˈwʊm.ən/ us
/ˈwʊm.ən/
plural women uk
/ˈwɪm.ɪn/ us
/ˈwɪm.ɪn/
Add to word list
A1 [ C ]
an adult female human being:
She's a really nice woman.
A woman and two men were arrested the day after the explosion.
Women first got the vote in Britain in 1918.
She is Ireland's first woman (= female) president.

Tim Robberts/DigitalVision/GettyImages

an adult who lives and identifies as female though they may have been considered to have a different sex at birth:
Mary is a woman who was assigned male at birth.
transgender woman Marie is a transgender woman (= she was considered to be male at birth).

He's the "EDI Jester". He's been in the game for a long while to be fair. Primarily videos about the sheer nonsense of it all. e.g.

music.youtube.com/podcast/i7LlFtja4Qw

What's astonishing here by this admission is you are part of your own 'problem'. That women suffered abuse for wearing trousers ergo men can put up with it isn't going to change that 'passing' is the road to avoid abuse infact its only going to accelerate it.

You realise you aren't helping your own 'cause'?

I suspect what you really want is for these people who make you feel uncomfortable just disappear. Good luck with that.

This is the article Barry Wall is responding to:

https://genspect.org/transgender-is-a-symptom/

Yes, this an accurate enough description of how people use the word. But the second sense is dependent on the first! You can't say what it means to "live as female" - to fully define "woman in sense 2" - without reference to behaviours of "women in sense 1". The ordinary, biological sense of "woman" is clearly primary. And any attempt to formalise "live as female" in proper detail seems inevitably to lead to sex stereotyping, suggesting the whole thing is fundamentally sexist.

No - you're mis-understanding. I'm saying any man can wear a skirt if they want to, and they won't get ridicule from me - I suspect the majority of the ridicule will come from men (just like it did when men started wearing trousers), and I don't see how that is my problem to solve for those men. That passing isn't required if men just start wearing skirts. That there's nothing magical about skirts that makes you a woman, and that the idea of it is regressive and insulting.

And yes, I would like anyone displaying their fetish in public to stop doing that. I don't care if they wear a skirt, I do care if they wear a skirt with the express intention of letting their erection poke out while they take selfies in the ladies toilets.

If they're walking around in a skirt like any other person, no problem. Go for it.

And it will all fluidly flow back to a definition that is a useful definition and not some social engineering attempt by people who should really know better (not that I share the British obsession with Oxbridge in the first place).
It still doesn't explain how "femininity" is achieved by stuffing kids full of puberty blockers.

"Whatever pains it cost, conquer their stubbornness, break the will if you would not damn the child"

Sounds like they agree with Susanna Wesley's methods of child rearing.

Somewhat out of date I think it would be agreed.

You can be a warm, loving and kind parent and still deal gently and compassionately with a gender questioning child.

In early childhood, it's play/fantasy/ a wish to emulate a sibling/ exploration of the concept of gender and it's stereotypes
In puberty it may be a fear of growing up, trying to establish identity, trying to understand why they feel 'different', trying to find a tribe, pushing against parental expectations.

Is this guy from the Telegraph comment section??

I would argue that it’s so gone beyond a joke that mockery isn’t even necessary.

That picture of Isla Bryson splashed on every front page with his cheap wig, 80s frosted make up, tacky pink clothes with penis clearly on show was parody in itself.

No one needed to say a word. The semiotics of the national press showing a hulking rapist presenting himself like that speak for themselves.

And any attempt to formalise "live as female" in proper detail seems inevitably to lead to sex stereotyping, suggesting the whole thing is fundamentally sexist.

Living as a female generally is often tied to wanting to be seen and addressed as female by society, regardless of the sex a person was assigned at birth. It also involves presenting oneself in a feminine way. And can refer to occupying the social status of a woman, which can involve dealing with specific societal rules, expectations, and sometimes the systemic challenges of misogyny or sexism.

I assume your sexist assertion is about trans women wanting to present in a feminine way? You could say the same about the overwhelming majority of cis women globally so are you suggesting they too are perpetuating sexist stereotypes?

Well your personal opinion is all well & good but the fact of the matter is it isn't one shared broadly particularly on this forum of which only exacerbates medical transition.

I do think adults need to start being firm about this nonsense. I can't help thinking of the Dutch trans-identifying teenager who allegedly murdered her parents and was apparently going to school dressed as a furry. At some point, you have to stop indulging children and just tell them No. And yes, a lot of these children need psychological support, which should be provided, but we must stop pretending that identifying as the opposite sex is a legitimate or sane thing to do.

They’re not performing or parodying it though. Women are just wearing clothes marketed and socialised for women.

How do you know they are performing or parodying? How do you you know their inclination towards feminine aesthetics isn't an innate personality trait just like it is for women?

You do realise the inconsistency in saying the sexes overlap in behaviours but if they express one that's not common to them its 'performing'?

Funny how sexist men say the same thing about women having 'man envy' created feminism.

There's a difference between a dictionary giving the definition of a word, e.g. in this case, woman = adult female human, and a dictionary giving the current, probably time-limited, usage of a word in restricted social groups.

The Cambridge Dictionary online does both, and sometimes people mistake usage for definition.

Sometimes over the centuries usage does become definition - the word 'restive' is an interesting example.

But more often usage is a fad - the Cambridge Dictionary includes the usage of 'sick' as meaning
very good, excellent:
snowboarders doing sick tricks

But it has not changed the definition of 'sick' as
physically or mentally ill; not well or healthy.

'Sick' meaning 'excellent' is probably old hat already - these alternative uses of words often have a moment, and then fade away - 'gear' was 1960s for 'sick', and whatever happened to 'dope'?

So just because an online dictionary gives current, limited, and probably temporary, alternative uses for words, like 'woman', that does not mean that the definition of 'woman' has been changed to include men.

The word ‘woman’ means ‘adult human female’. to distinguish us from adult female cats, or elephants. Woke reimagining to suit men, doesn’t change that. If you mean the sexist stereotypes of masculinity and femininity then say that.

Ridicule of ‘trans kids’ wouldn’t be my first choice, but it’s infinitely better than lying to them. Honesty is always the kindest thing.

I’m going to assume posters saying the opposite either don’t have kids or shouldn’t have them.

If they have ‘an inclination for feminine aesthetics’ then great! Crack on. Just own it as a male and don’t claim to be “living as a woman”. Plenty of pop stars did it the 80s. Harry Styles - alpha male - wearing nail polish and ball gowns. Grand.

Men claiming to ‘live as a women’ by changing their name and making cosmetic changes is so bloody insulting.

So tired of this nonsense.

Men can be feminine. I don’t think anyone has ever said otherwise. But feminine men aren’t women because they’re feminine. Men with autogynephilia (an exclusively male paraphilia) aren’t women either.

I’ve long since ignored him. He means well, but can sometimes get carried away and I think his ego sometimes overshadows the points he is making. He called this wrong. Much of that post is valid, but like you I absolutely do not support ridiculing a TP’s deeply felt beliefs. I do believe in questioning and encouraging exploration - but, no, it is never okay to ridicule someone and especially a young someone.

Well, unless they are a bloke in a dress. Izzard and Willoughby deserve all they get. (I am a hypocrit, I know.)

No they are not.

'Woman' and 'Man' are the words used in english to denote an adult human male and an adult human female. An infant/junior female is a girl; and an infant/junior male is a boy.