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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 7

832 replies

myladydisdainisyetliving · Yesterday 15:28

Previous thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5551375-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-6

TT substack: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

Please note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
nicepotoftea · Today 18:14

From Tribunal Tweets

HH - Ew is saying we don't accept GI not just for herself but full stop.

From EW's statement explaining gender critical beliefs:

"Diversity of belief makes our organisation stronger and our lives more interesting. Inclusivity makes us feel welcome and able to be our authentic selves. Those who are lesbian, gay, transgender, disabled, BAME, neurodiverse, from different social backgrounds and religions, and those with other experiences all enrich our organisation.
There are many protected beliefs in our organisation, some religious (such as Christitianity) and some philosophical (such as veganism). Some people believe that we all have a gender (sometimes ‘gender identity’) separate from our biological sex; that sex is a spectrum, and that biological sex is an idea that first emerged with white European colonisation. Such beliefs are protected by law.

Other people, such as myself, hold that sex is binary (male and female), fundamentally biological and an important category to recognise in language, laws, sport and [the] workplace. These beliefs, sometimes called ‘gender critical’ are also protected by law.

.........

I am sure there is more common ground than difference in this sometimes heated debate.”

At some point isn't HH just trying to argue that black is white?

Kucinghitam · Today 18:17

AmaryllisNightAndDay · Today 18:03

Thanks again to TT and the cut and pasters.

I'm rather hoping that NC will get to have some fun with "My Body Is Me" tomorrow (well, if HH ever finishes) Though in reality I know she has to focus on what matters to her case in the ever shrinking time available.

Nah, I predict -

HH (many hours): Bigot, toxic, nausea, phoby-phoby-phoby, doom, despair and a wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Judge: Totes fine, carry on, veh fascinating.
NC: Good morni-
Judge: Too much time! What is the point of this?
NC: Bigot, toxic...
Judge: Banned language! Off with her head!

MarieDeGournay · Today 18:19

ProfDrLapwing · Today 18:02

On reflection I think that’s why the image was being checked out 😬

Every image get's checked out first, a legacy of some nasty incursion of offensive stuff a while ago.
Even this cute pikkie of a sweeeet little rat will get the once-over.

Nothing to do with your nipple-y Tunnocks medal. Now there's a sentence I never thought I'd write.
Hang on, that's not a sentence, it doesn't have a verb - please put 'It has' in front of it and make the N lower case.
I have a reputation as a pedant to keep up, you know!😄

Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 7
AmaryllisNightAndDay · Today 18:20

Kirschcherries · Today 18:08

I always come back to the HR scenario of a biological female employee with a GRC saying they are male. They raise numerous grievances for misgendering etc. exactly like ST any suggestion they are a bio female is transphobic, denying their existence etc.

Then one day they rock up with a Mat B1 - as HR do I say I respect you are a man and sadly this means you are not entitled to Statutory Maternity Leave & Pay, you are not entitled to Occupational Mat Pay and you are not entitled to the pc of pregnancy and maternity etc. as all the legislation states woman or mother. If I treat you as a woman you will raise a grievance against me.

Obviously I go sex matters, you are a bio woman who is pregnant, so I am going to treat you as such.

Pregnancy and maternity are also protected characteristics under the Equality Act. Sex means bio sex throughout the Equality Act and transmen even with a GRC are still biologically women.

Pregnancy and Maternity rights for transmen really been underplayed but the Supreme Court by choosing bio sex and not certificated sex gave that significant protection to transmen.

So the Supreme Court did protect trans people. Just not the Really Important Trans People - the male ones.

ProfDrLapwing · Today 18:20

ickky · Today 18:04

They have fashioned them into nipple tassels. The blue is the dark chocolate.

Where can I order a pair of those. Asking for a friend

RogueFemale · Today 18:22

AmaryllisNightAndDay · Today 18:20

Pregnancy and maternity are also protected characteristics under the Equality Act. Sex means bio sex throughout the Equality Act and transmen even with a GRC are still biologically women.

Pregnancy and Maternity rights for transmen really been underplayed but the Supreme Court by choosing bio sex and not certificated sex gave that significant protection to transmen.

So the Supreme Court did protect trans people. Just not the Really Important Trans People - the male ones.

Has there ever been an employment tribunal case involving a trans-identifying woman, I wonder?

nicepotoftea · Today 18:24

Kirschcherries · Today 18:08

I always come back to the HR scenario of a biological female employee with a GRC saying they are male. They raise numerous grievances for misgendering etc. exactly like ST any suggestion they are a bio female is transphobic, denying their existence etc.

Then one day they rock up with a Mat B1 - as HR do I say I respect you are a man and sadly this means you are not entitled to Statutory Maternity Leave & Pay, you are not entitled to Occupational Mat Pay and you are not entitled to the pc of pregnancy and maternity etc. as all the legislation states woman or mother. If I treat you as a woman you will raise a grievance against me.

Obviously I go sex matters, you are a bio woman who is pregnant, so I am going to treat you as such.

To play devil's advocate maternity rights could just refer to 'people' who become pregnant, but they only relate to the period between becoming pregnant and returning to work. Women also need rights when they are identifiably somebody who might become pregnant, if they are going through IVF, after they have had the baby. At some point you can't avoid the fact that these and other things only happen to women and it's all relevant to equality law.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · Today 18:28

CriticalCondition · Today 17:52

Just to clarify the bit about the 'only women bleed/Alice Cooper/great song' post which HH wanted to bring into evidence from the Spreadsheet of Doom. HH was attributing it to EDW. NC objected and said it wasn't her client's post. Cue much faffing about. Eventually HH went out with ST to 'take instructions', came back in and dropped it.

The scraping had reached the bottom of the barrel.

And, (sorry about the metaphors but my ice-cream is overdue) another shot in the foot for ST who on the one hand seeks to rely on the SSoD when it appears to implicate EDW (and how/why did that happen anyway) and on the other in his WS says it's incomplete and inaccurate.

... another shot in the foot for ST ...

It is a wonder that he has any toes left at this point

Shortshriftandlethal · Today 18:32

MyAmpleSheep · Today 17:12

Genuinely, not to be overturned on appeal if he finds for the respondent.

Yes, that's my suspicion, which maybe an optimistic one. He has been bending over backwards to be sensitive to, and to listen to, at length the claimant's case; and doesn't want to come across as prejudiced ( even though, in effect, that is how he has come across in being so short with NC and controlling over language etc)

i also wondered whether he was trying to support HH as a fellow North-Easterner with a reputation to burnish ( having come from, as it says in her profile, a Teeside comprehensive school, and having been the first in her family to go to university etc)

Kirschcherries · Today 18:34

AmaryllisNightAndDay · Today 18:20

Pregnancy and maternity are also protected characteristics under the Equality Act. Sex means bio sex throughout the Equality Act and transmen even with a GRC are still biologically women.

Pregnancy and Maternity rights for transmen really been underplayed but the Supreme Court by choosing bio sex and not certificated sex gave that significant protection to transmen.

So the Supreme Court did protect trans people. Just not the Really Important Trans People - the male ones.

Absolutely agree and that is one reason I through the SC might find sex, man woman = bio sex. I agree the SC judgement protected TM.

My example was to illustrate the outcome of what HH and ST are trying to argue.

Kirschcherries · Today 18:35

RogueFemale · Today 18:22

Has there ever been an employment tribunal case involving a trans-identifying woman, I wonder?

I doubt it as no HR professional would deny them mat leave etc.

Kirschcherries · Today 18:41

nicepotoftea · Today 18:24

To play devil's advocate maternity rights could just refer to 'people' who become pregnant, but they only relate to the period between becoming pregnant and returning to work. Women also need rights when they are identifiably somebody who might become pregnant, if they are going through IVF, after they have had the baby. At some point you can't avoid the fact that these and other things only happen to women and it's all relevant to equality law.

No government is going to eradicate the word woman from all the legislation currently on the statute books. It’s in H & S legislation etc.

In 2021 there was a new Act - Ministerial and other Maternity Allowances Act
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2021/5
The good old House of Lords, including Lord Winston, persuaded the HoC to use mother or expectant mother as a compromise. Following the SC judgement I think woman will remain in legislation. This Act was a significant win.

Ministerial and other Maternity Allowances Act 2021

An Act to make provision for payments to or in respect of Ministers and holders of Opposition offices on maternity leave.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2021/5

Boiledbeetle · Today 18:42

MarieDeGournay · Today 18:19

Every image get's checked out first, a legacy of some nasty incursion of offensive stuff a while ago.
Even this cute pikkie of a sweeeet little rat will get the once-over.

Nothing to do with your nipple-y Tunnocks medal. Now there's a sentence I never thought I'd write.
Hang on, that's not a sentence, it doesn't have a verb - please put 'It has' in front of it and make the N lower case.
I have a reputation as a pedant to keep up, you know!😄

Harriet is just too cute!

Boiledbeetle · Today 18:43

RogueFemale · Today 18:22

Has there ever been an employment tribunal case involving a trans-identifying woman, I wonder?

There was a NB woman I think, she had a really stupid new name.

Crabbyoldgrandma · Today 18:43

Thinking of the claimant as Kenneth Williams being Julius Caesar shouting out "In famy, infamy, they all have it in for me!"being

PS How can any reputable lawyer, let alone a barrister, use a Wikipedia article as evidence to back up her client? At least Caroline Aires responded that she did not stoop to checking her facts by using unreliable sources like Wikipedia.
I used to instruct my sixth form students not to quote Wikipedia in their coursework bibliography. Perhaps, there is a job for me still in training barristers about this.

RogueFemale · Today 18:44

Kirschcherries · Today 18:35

I doubt it as no HR professional would deny them mat leave etc.

But could be about stuff the same as Tinkerbell is claiming.

Kirschcherries · Today 18:45

RogueFemale · Today 18:44

But could be about stuff the same as Tinkerbell is claiming.

I honestly don’t know.

CriticalCondition · Today 18:46

MyAmpleSheep · Today 17:12

Genuinely, not to be overturned on appeal if he finds for the respondent.

And so it goes on. The judge, who should be even-handed, is bending over backwards so as not to upset the easily offended man who could carry on making life difficult for everyone.

Mochudubh · Today 18:46

Madcats · Today 16:53

It was probably a vaporised fairy.

This and @Thehorticulturalhussie Nobody expects the Trannish Inquisition.

Reminds me of this wonderful book by the late, lamented Terry Jones.
https://www.diabolicalplots.com/book-review-lady-cottingtons-pressed-fairy-book-by-terry-jones/

As if this tribunal hasn't already given us enough Monty Python moments.

BOOK REVIEW: Lady Cottington’s Pressed Fairy Book by Terry Jones – Diabolical Plots

https://www.diabolicalplots.com/book-review-lady-cottingtons-pressed-fairy-book-by-terry-jones

Hedgehogsrightsarehumanrights · Today 18:50

Pontias pilot scene “is there any women here”

Life of Brian was about zealots of all shape and form.

and my goodness how it has become so relevant today.

ProfLargofesse · Today 18:52

ProfLargofesse · Today 17:35

I suppose it could be argued he's giving them all the space and time they need to fuck their own case up. I would think that might make sense if I thought the J was reliably logical but I don't trust him.

But whether I trust him or not, so far, I think it is objectively observable that they have not presented a strong case. They are depending wholly on the idea that just saying sex sometimes matters is creating a hostile environment. This I believe the C believes but his PC of GRA does not protect him from being a time-wasting arsehole which is the case as it currently stands.

Case so far:

SEEN gets set up after agreement by CO.

CA and NB understand that those who don't subscribe to GI have not been heard and that it is legitimate for SEEN network to exist so folk can talk about the material reality of sex and the impact that has, such as pay gap, oppression, prejudice, SSSs etc.

They understand the law does not not mean by manifestation that all discussion should be banned rather that it should be grown up and respectful.

SEEN sets out its stall.

ST rabble rouses and posts insulting and derogatory comments in response.

These are taken down as is the original post.

Much discussion ensues at senior level. Some argue that SEEN should be banned, others recognise that would be discriminatory.

SEEN are told to edit out the invitation to chat as that is being seen by TRAs as debating their existence. Post goes back up, more vitriol, post removed again, SEEN cross.

Whilst discussions are ongoing about how to manage TRAs in the workplace fairly without discriminating against SEEN, codes of conduct are reviewed and updated, moderation is restructured, Yammer moves to Viva Engage which can silo networks more effectively.

SEEN corrects misrepresentation of EQa and PCs in training slide. Nother furore in response. Claims that this amounts to denial of GRA as PC.

Not good enough for ST who continues to insist SEEN removed. Starts a g/x. Gets to work from home before going off sick. OH tell him not to look for things to be offended by but he is engaging throughout with all manner of things.

Some senior staff agree with ST. He is encouraged to believe SEEN will be banned.

Don't know the outcome of initial grievance but think it not upheld so ST appeals. Sympathetic appeal lead consults Top HR boss who advises not legal to ban SEEN.

Recommendations from JH outcome letter can't be fully implemented as she has ignored top HR boss.

ST under the impression he has won. Learns that not all recommendations will be implemented, demands a review of appeal.

Appeal reviewed, nothing found wanting in decision not to implement recommendations.

ET pretty much in progress Includes AM and EW and SEEN. .

Claim against EW and AM dropped and against SEEN dropped no doubt because claims were very weak as the nasty stuff didn't come from them but from TRAs.

Robin White also no longer legal rep?

In claim agains Rs ST claims lots of moderation of TRAs but not of SEEN amounted to hostile working environment and harassment.

The only chance HH has of making a case is to take the position that GC is not WORIADS which is essentially what you are claiming if no manifestation is seen to be reasonable.

J has tried to avoid philopsophical debate and he can't go against Forstater ruling so if he is to find for ST he has to find that the manifestation was not well managed by Rs and I think that is kinda impossible. In the sea of TRA tantrums there was one post that was left up when it might not have been when under review. That's it. Other than GC is evil.

I've probably got some of that in the wrong order and missed bits out but that is the sense I make of it so far.

Ah, was the first g/x the harassment claim against AM in which ST wanted him to be suspended but the finding was that the evidence provided was insufficient, as no evidence he’d been posting on Mumsnet and tweets were anonymous and outside work?

Then he appealed that and JH found AM had harassed ST and made recommendations? One of those recommendations could have been another attempt to discipline AM aswell as ban SEEN? Someone else is bound to have paid for attention to the WSs but I don’t think we’ve had sight of the outcome letter from JH or the recommendations?

Hedgehogsrightsarehumanrights · Today 18:57

ProfLargofesse · Today 18:52

Ah, was the first g/x the harassment claim against AM in which ST wanted him to be suspended but the finding was that the evidence provided was insufficient, as no evidence he’d been posting on Mumsnet and tweets were anonymous and outside work?

Then he appealed that and JH found AM had harassed ST and made recommendations? One of those recommendations could have been another attempt to discipline AM aswell as ban SEEN? Someone else is bound to have paid for attention to the WSs but I don’t think we’ve had sight of the outcome letter from JH or the recommendations?

Yes we did, read the witness statements available on the TT substack

nicepotoftea · Today 18:58

Kirschcherries · Today 18:41

No government is going to eradicate the word woman from all the legislation currently on the statute books. It’s in H & S legislation etc.

In 2021 there was a new Act - Ministerial and other Maternity Allowances Act
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2021/5
The good old House of Lords, including Lord Winston, persuaded the HoC to use mother or expectant mother as a compromise. Following the SC judgement I think woman will remain in legislation. This Act was a significant win.

Thinking about it you could probably avoid using 'woman', but legislation would become difficult to read if it avoided 'mother'.

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