Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 4

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5549122-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-3

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

I will also note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

Helen Joyce's Trans is currently 99p on Amazon Kindle. Don't know how long it'll be at that price.

This.

Emma is a vindictive piece of work, isn't she!

We were glad they have regional offices when we needed to visit one to sort out an odd issue with our deeds - not everything can necessarily be done online/centralised.

Didn’t she say somewhere else (maybe WS) she only found out when she joined the Land Registry? Seems weird to be joining it at 14

It sounds as though she only understood that she had Swyers when she was older.

Perhaps the condition had been explained before then but not given a label.

Yes, sounds plausible.

For those not on X, I thought I'd share this interesting response to JKR comment re the Judge compelling NC's speech:

JKRs comment:

'A judge is prioritising a man's narcissistic demand for validation by instructing the women in court to collude in that man's fantasy against their will and against their own interests.'

Interesting response:

Un Étrange En Terre Étrange
@LoinDuTribu
·
3h
'Rowling, you can stack your billions to the moon and it still won’t make you legally literate.

A judge controlling loaded terminology in court is basic procedure.

It is not “collusion”, it is not “fantasy”, and it is not the collapse of women’s rights because someone in a powdered wig didn’t let you bring Mumsnet into the evidence bundle.'

And

'As someone who occasionally sits on tribunals, I can tell you that you are talking directly out of your arse.'

And

'“TIM” is not neutral language. It is activist slang coined by people who reject the category they are describing. It does not clarify evidence. It smuggles contempt into the room and then pretends the smell is objectivity.

“Trans woman” does not force anyone to lie about sex. It simply identifies the person without allowing one side to turn every sentence into a little hate pamphlet.

A tribunal can hear evidence about biological sex, gender reassignment, belief, conduct, harassment and discrimination perfectly well without letting Twitter cranks dictate the glossary.

And again, I cannot stress this enough - it is literalky MY job to know these things.'

😂

I really hope this guy doesn't actually sit on ETs, but if he does, it explains a lot....

Late comment: I wonder if Ritchie was allowed to take part in the, totally-unbiased-cross-section-of-CS-employees-reflecting-the-general-feeling-within-the-workforce a:gender 'bullying and harassment at work' survey?

it is literalky MY job to know these things

None so blind etc. etc.

My knowledge is very out of date. They are actually an efficient agency in terms of processing but got cut back to the bone in terms of headcount following the financial crisis then COVID saw a massive increase which led to the backlog.

This is the latest Annual Report https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6878a831a52cca025ef5bd73/HMLR_ARAC_2025_WEB.pdf

The first couple of pages give the headlines.

What a lot of nonsense.

I am not willing to refer to a man as a woman. Any kind of woman. I was for years, but i've been steadily more convinced by these men that to do so was a very bad idea, and using those words starts from a position of compliance and submission to the ideology.

No. It's a perfectly respectful phrase, a man with a trans identity - which could be anything, NB fluid etc etc, it's inclusive of.

It's actually a whole lot less offensive than 'cis' or inaccurately daft as 'assigned at birth'.

Indeed.

I've got a feeling that once the tide has properly turned, this guy will look back at these posts and cringe himself into a pretzel (whilst rapidly pressing delete).

Completely agree.

I always think, if you wish to indulge this man's belief that he is something other than a man, you can also indulge my belief that he isn't. If you wish to be polite, be polite to us both. If you wish to be respectful, be respectful to both.

Otherwise you've already picked a side, and based it on binary sex, and a hierarchy that has suppressed women before you'll let a woman even open her mouth.

Fuck that.

I do find the gender ideologues seem to lack theory of mind; there is no concept that distress could go both ways. I can understand why, if your identity is wrapped up in language and external validation, then horrible vipers saying 'no, I won't use your language' could seem offensive, could drive you almost mad, actually (to the point of launching punitive legal action). But there's no acknowledgment that people like me might find the erasure of the word woman (or the myriad other examples we could give here) also distressing, also annihilating. And if we're denied the chance to assemble (thank you, Mumsnet) the world becomes a very isolating place.

But he’s got his point wrong about mumsnet. It’s the Claimant that has already brought mumsnet into the bundle not NC or the Respondent (or JKR).

You are correct imho.

Just adding this to the above.

A woman posted this in reply to our Interesting Self-proclaimed ET Panel Member:

'Freedom of speech is the most basic freedom we have. The judge is instructing a witness to say something they believe to be untrue, and in fact ordering her to lie on the stand. This is absolute disgrace and brings the administration of justice into disrepute.'

And our Self-proclaimed ET Panel Member responded thus:

'You live in Canada, you moose-loving hobgoblin.'

So rational! So sane! Such a great argument! 🤣🤣🤣

Sorry I'll stop derailing now. JKR, the mention of Mumsnet and a Self-proclaimed ET panel member being batshit was too good not to share!

See also the total lack of understanding of why women are angry, fighting back and pushing their rights in law.

There is no cause and effect understanding of 'threatening to sexually violate and murder women, wanking in their spaces, excluding them and loudly not caring, raping them in prisons and hospital wards etc has made them a bit pissed off and driven them to say no, no more games, you're not women, get your own facilities'.

They're baffled by it.

Yes, it's hard to admit that we simply don't count. I think we know this, deep down (although women have little idea how much men hate us etc etc) but we're conditioned to make nice and to make society actually work. If we actually downed tools/refused to tidy up after everyone's emotional incontinence society would just break down.

A judge in an ET does not wear a powdered wig.
Difficult to believe this person has any experience of sitting on tribunals.

Absolutely.

And looking at incoming new government, I'm not at all sure they're going anywhere.

Based on todays testimony, the only grouping within DEFRA with falling levels of representation is biological women

Difficult to believe on many levels...! Good point about the wigs.

It did give me a chuckle though. These people have zero idea how they come across.