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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

As much spent on Maternity Compensation as Maternity Care

78 replies

RedToothBrush · 24/06/2026 12:36

Ockenden also highlights a "startling statistic", that says clinical negligence is costing the NHS almost the same in legal compensation - as it spends on the delivery of maternity care itself.

This is how little women matter in political terms.

This isn't just a reflection of the NHS. It's in terms of how our society values having children.

It says everything.

OP posts:
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MrsOvertonsWindow · Yesterday 06:53

TheRealMagic · Yesterday 06:26

But the 'with good care' part is crucial, and exactly the issue at hand. Trusts who are not giving compassionate, careful or even adequate care for vaginal births wouldn't suddenly become fine if everyone had an elective c section. A friend of mine had an elective c section and the actual birth was wonderful - calm, controlled, everything she'd hoped for - and then she was neglected with inadequate pain relief and no basic assistance on the postnatal ward. She ended up getting an infection. It turned what could have been a really great birth into an experience that she found pretty traumatic.

If the problem is the care and the attitudes to women then changing the method of birth won't solve that.

The problem are multiple - lack of good safe care, awful attitudes to women, poor management. staff being caught up in a "natural birth at all costs" and zero consequences for those failing in so many areas "Leaders at the trust were repeatedly warned of maternity problems but “brushed them under the carpet”. For over a deacde!

From this article in the Times who have been covering these scandals for years and here point out how those leaders who presided over these known failings have been rewarded with promotion and awards. They're finally naming names :

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/healthcare/article/ockenden-review-nottingham-maternity-nhs-bosses-managers-accountable-jq88tqn0z

We've all got our own anecdotes about c sections, good or appalling care etc. But that shouldn't distract us from the terrible consequences that some women & babies. The UK apparently ranks 19th out of 22 comparable countries. That's how awful the situation is.

Ockenden review: Three hospital bosses were awarded CBEs

The review of maternity services at Nottingham University Hospital Trust criticised the leadership of units led by senior staff who were later given honours

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/healthcare/article/ockenden-review-nottingham-maternity-nhs-bosses-managers-accountable-jq88tqn0z

MrsOvertonsWindow · Yesterday 07:03

The UK ranks at 19th out of 22 comparable countiries for infant newborn mortality rates:
https://post.parliament.uk/maternal-newborn-and-infant-health-priorities-for-improved-outcomes/

Until the government forces the NHS to redirect finances to adequately staff, train & resource maternity care, nothing will change. We can all see at a glance certain areas where the NHS is awash with money spent on pointless fripperies (flags, crossings, lanyards, time wasting anti women policies and Bumba type DEI jobs} that leaders are content to waste resources on.

Yet they can't be bothered to direct time and resources to improve maternity care.

DworkinWasRight · Yesterday 07:16

igelkott2026 · 25/06/2026 15:11

There's always so much moaning about elective c-sections. Yet if we did more of those and fewer botched vaginal deliveries and emergency c-sections, we'd probably reduce the negligence bill massively (as well as the bill for repairing womens' bits when ripped apart).

We certainly woukd. Most of the maternity negligence bill goes on paying for the lifetime care of brain-injured children. These injuries only occur when a woman goes through labour.

RedToothBrush · Yesterday 07:38

JulietteHasAGun · 25/06/2026 23:46

It's a complex subject. But we aren't collecting enough data on what's going on and reasons for an ELCS. This is really important. But no one gives a shit enough to do this research.

that’s not correct, there’s a lot of research on the topic

There's really not. There can't be if they don't actually record reasons for ELCS officially. Which they don't.

I was classified as an ELCS for maternal choice. My notes all said mental health reasons. This is important to make a clear distinction.

I spent a huge amount of time looking at this and there's a problem with the research available, the quality of the research and how badly it's being politically influenced.

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RedToothBrush · Yesterday 08:02

igelkott2026 · 25/06/2026 15:11

There's always so much moaning about elective c-sections. Yet if we did more of those and fewer botched vaginal deliveries and emergency c-sections, we'd probably reduce the negligence bill massively (as well as the bill for repairing womens' bits when ripped apart).

If someone was to approach this and do some freedom of information requests on method of delivery and negligence pay outs, ELCS almost certainly would fare well. It would then generate statistics which would make for uncomfortable reading but probably wouldn't really help women.

ELCS are all done between 9-5 Mon to Fri. This is when the most experienced staff are available and when the most staff are on shift. Because these shifts are the sociable ones.

Time and again the underlying theme is lack of problems comes back to staffing, lack of leadership/supervision and lack of necessary skills out of hours in reports.

ELCS almost hide the problem because you wouldnt be able to tell if the outcomes were a result of the method of birth being a correlation or causation issue. Or most likely both. The potential for misreading and misusing this idea is huge.

When researching everything that I could possibly find about ELCS one thing came up that is really concerning. If you reach a certain percentage of ELCS then they become the cheapest method of delivery. Why? Because you don't have to fund out of hours care anywhere near as much. And this was what has happened in China. Women having very few children (one child policy until fairly recently) meant that risks associated with subsequent births were irrelevant (risk with vbs decline with second babies and subsequent babies). Only the risks for first births matters. And since much of the risk with an ELCS is for subsequent births, this mattered. It allowed China to have incredibly low staffing and of course this meant women had next to no choice because you would be foolish to risk a VB which tend to happen in the early hours of the morning when there's no staff around. It would have the effect in the long term of making this much more dangerous. But it's become so normalised that attitudes seem ELCSs as better.

There isn't a better method. Only a better method for each individual woman. This production line attitude to birth - which we've seen develop in the UK and in China in different ways isn't healthy.

It always comes back to the need for women centred care with the emphasis on the individual. You can't do this in an environment which has the priority of cutting corners and cutting costs. It has to be treated like a long term investment where if you put in money your outcomes across the board are going to improve.

As we can see from the figures in this in quite a startling manner that the lack of investment in women giving birth has done nothing but harm but no one has been monitoring this and there's been no accountability because these are 'separate budget pools' with no oversight and no one joining up the very obvious dots. That's 100% on hospital management who are easy breezy about spunking huge amounts on compensation because the easier management route is poor investment in services and then trying to cover arses rather than deal with known and obvious problems.

It's toxic.

The emphasis has been for women to comply with stupid notions about rates of C-section rather than hospital managers having to comply and account for high negligence claims and costs. Their solution has always been to throw it back onto women on the most dangerous day of their lives and to try and cover it up and do their fucking jobs properly.

Unfortunately I believe until we start seeing hospital managers legal liable nothing will change.

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NowSober · Yesterday 09:14

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/06/2026 23:27

Blame the Guardian then. Figures including legal costs not just damages. Estimated bill:

The £27.4bn figure is the estimated value of maternity claims arising out of incidents since April 2019. NHS Resolution said the figure could change as there is an average three-year gap between an incident and a legal claim, the most serious birth injuries resulting in payments made over several years – and sometimes for the duration of the child’s life. NHS Resolution said the £27.4bn value of maternity claims and the £37.5bn outstanding provision would fluctuate as a result of the Treasury discount rate, the formula used to calculate the value of future compensation payouts.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/jul/20/nhs-facing-absolutely-shocking-27bn-bill-for-maternity-failings-in-england

The £27.4bn figure is the estimated value of maternity claims arising out of incidents since April 2019.

If maternity claims over the last seven years amount to £27.4 billion then the annual average would be £3.19 billion for claims compared to the £3 billion paid out that I gave in my post.

NowSober · Yesterday 09:19

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/06/2026 23:35

Analysis of NHS figures shows the potential bill for maternity negligence in England since 2019 has reached £27.4bn – far more than the health service’s roughly £18bn budget for newborns in that time.

this is where the comparison is derived from. Can you explain how it’s “disinformation” @NowSober ?

Edited

The disinformation is in quoting a figure for claims over seven years & then comparing it to an annual budget. £27.4 billion over seven years is about £3.19 billion per year very near to the figure I gave of £3 billion for compensation paid out annually.

RoyalCorgi · Yesterday 09:47

RedToothbrush is right about the lack of data. And we need to distinguish between research (where you take a sample of, say, 1,000 women and extrapolate from that) and hard statistics. The NHS records the number of caesareans, but the only distinction it makes is between emergency and planned/elective.

So we don't know the reasons why women are having planned caesareans. Is it because of personal preference? Is it because they had a caesarean with their first birth, and therefore have been advised a caesarean is safer for their second birth? Is it because their baby is breech, or because they have a condition such as placenta praevia or placenta accreta that would make a vaginal birth dangerous or impossible? We don't know.

Neither do we know the reasons for the increase in emergency caesareans.

Orangemintcream · Yesterday 09:53

Tbh I think individuals who provide poor care need to be held accountable- at the moment it’s very rare for anything to be done and difficult to sue an individual (I don’t know if it’s possible at all).

If these people knew they could loose their job, their licence and their home from being sued they might have an incentive to not provide such shit care.

And then the trust might stop covering it up on their behalf as it won’t be the trust being taken to court - it would be the person.

HairsprayBabe · Yesterday 09:56

The single biggest issue with maternity care is that they do not listen to mothers either way.

Time after time in all the literature you are given by midwives you are told "listen to your body" "go with your gut" but when you try to do that they bully and pressure you into choices you don't want to make.

I had a home birth with my second that I had to fight for so hard. They pushed and pushed me to be induced. They scheduled induction without my consent and they did not listen to me and tried to push me down the "Saving babies lives" care package route with pathetic and unrelated "horror stories". It was awful and that level of intervention could have gone to someone who actually needed it.

They thought my daughter was SGA but they measured me incorrectly at booking and so all my measurements and charts were off and they would not amend them later on - my daughter was born a bang average 7lb7oz.

TorturedParentsDepartment · Yesterday 11:08

Actually - even if I had been "allowed" (god it sounds like we're naughty schoolgirls) an elective section with DD2 on the grounds of birth trauma after what QMC did to me - I wouldn't have taken it because no way was I prepared to risk being even MORE vulnerable post-op on the same type of ward that I'd gone through hell in previously.

What I needed, and what I did as much pushing for as I could, was a reassurance that I'd be prioritised NOT to be sent over to QMC for DD2 - at the time I was pregnant with both of them (2012/2013 ish) there was quite a number of situations where one labour ward or the other would be closed due to being overcapacity and women would be sent running around Nottingham to the other site despite birth plans and ante natal care and everything else having been carried out at the other hospital. It was so frequent it had almost become accepted and normalised.

The HUGE RED capital letters over my maternity notes I'd written begging them not to send me over to QMC might have offered some leverage as well - the midwives at the City hospital were actually fuming when they heard some of what had gone on and saw how traumatised and terrified I was.

JulietteHasAGun · Yesterday 11:15

from a compensation pov there’s no point suing an individual who lets face it as a nurse, midwife or doctor is not going to be able to pay much.

you could argue well it’s a deterrent for poor practice but how can you prove what caused an individual’s poor practice? Were they lazy, negligent or did they have an unmanageable workload? What contributed to the error.

As a midwife I once made a medication error. I gave a woman propess for an induction who’d had a previous lscs. Which is a contradiction. She had been seen in clinic, booked for induction and the medication prescribed. Induction women came in every morning and one midwife looked after them all (5 women), their arrival times were staggered 15 mins apart. Previously it had been an hour gap. When it moved to 15 mins I flagged it as a risk and was told to stop moaning. There is so much to do, show the women where stuff is on the ward, answer questions, explain the process, do a full antenatal check, start a ctg, check the ctg, 30 mins later give propess, then start the post propess ctg, check that ctg, document. The idea was to keep the ward running smoothly you’d run from one to the next, you couldn’t finish one woman completely before starting the next. By the time you’d done the antenatal check on the first woman, the second and maybe the third had turned up. I’d checked the drug was prescribed and gave it. I had no idea she’d previously had a lscs because I didn’t have time to go through her notes and to be honest it never crossed my mind to check for this anyway as a doctor surely wouldn’t have prescribed it if she shouldn’t have it!

I was newly qualified then and learnt a lesson for sure. But the pressure of that system was awful and made mistakes more likely. Luckily everything was fine but if it hadn’t been should I have been sued? When the position I was put in contributed to it?

I think a lot of staff would leave if it was thought that individual employees could be sued. We could as things stand be charged with manslaughter if things go really wrong. I’ve heard of this happening with some nurses who didn’t check a patients glucose levels frequently enough.

NowSober · Yesterday 11:20

Any damages awarded against an individual doctor, nurse or midwife will be paid by the NHS. Doctors used to pay for their own indemnity insurance with MDU or similar but it got so expensive that the government agreed the NHS would pay for all damages instead. This is regardless of how blameworthy the HCP may be.

Orangemintcream · Yesterday 11:22

JulietteHasAGun · Yesterday 11:15

from a compensation pov there’s no point suing an individual who lets face it as a nurse, midwife or doctor is not going to be able to pay much.

you could argue well it’s a deterrent for poor practice but how can you prove what caused an individual’s poor practice? Were they lazy, negligent or did they have an unmanageable workload? What contributed to the error.

As a midwife I once made a medication error. I gave a woman propess for an induction who’d had a previous lscs. Which is a contradiction. She had been seen in clinic, booked for induction and the medication prescribed. Induction women came in every morning and one midwife looked after them all (5 women), their arrival times were staggered 15 mins apart. Previously it had been an hour gap. When it moved to 15 mins I flagged it as a risk and was told to stop moaning. There is so much to do, show the women where stuff is on the ward, answer questions, explain the process, do a full antenatal check, start a ctg, check the ctg, 30 mins later give propess, then start the post propess ctg, check that ctg, document. The idea was to keep the ward running smoothly you’d run from one to the next, you couldn’t finish one woman completely before starting the next. By the time you’d done the antenatal check on the first woman, the second and maybe the third had turned up. I’d checked the drug was prescribed and gave it. I had no idea she’d previously had a lscs because I didn’t have time to go through her notes and to be honest it never crossed my mind to check for this anyway as a doctor surely wouldn’t have prescribed it if she shouldn’t have it!

I was newly qualified then and learnt a lesson for sure. But the pressure of that system was awful and made mistakes more likely. Luckily everything was fine but if it hadn’t been should I have been sued? When the position I was put in contributed to it?

I think a lot of staff would leave if it was thought that individual employees could be sued. We could as things stand be charged with manslaughter if things go really wrong. I’ve heard of this happening with some nurses who didn’t check a patients glucose levels frequently enough.

Yet time and time again staff get away scot free with no consequences for their actions. That needs to change. The behaviour described here isn’t accidental errors. It is consistent bad care, gaslighting and abuse.

Staff would have to have individual insurances to be allowed to practice - the insurance would have to pay - and there should be financial penalties for trusts that under perform and cover up this stuff - loss of pay to individuals including the head of trust.

Well performing trusts should get better pay - with patient outcomes assessed and patients able to contribute to the outcome.

NowSober · Yesterday 11:26

Orangemintcream · Yesterday 11:22

Yet time and time again staff get away scot free with no consequences for their actions. That needs to change. The behaviour described here isn’t accidental errors. It is consistent bad care, gaslighting and abuse.

Staff would have to have individual insurances to be allowed to practice - the insurance would have to pay - and there should be financial penalties for trusts that under perform and cover up this stuff - loss of pay to individuals including the head of trust.

Well performing trusts should get better pay - with patient outcomes assessed and patients able to contribute to the outcome.

As I posted just above the NHS covers payment of damages for individual HCPs regardless. There was a time when doctors had their own professional indemnity insurance but that became so expensive for the individual it had to be covered by NHS Indemnity instead.

Orangemintcream · Yesterday 11:30

The NHS covering it gives them a reason to cover it up within the trust. Make the individuals get insurance - if they are aided costs go up which will act as a strong reminder to the individual how to behave.

In addition to the above any NHS trust covering up or ignoring issues along the lines of Nottingham - all senior staff should lose a years pay - without being released from their contract so they can’t just quit. Fuck them over make them pay for the mistakes for once.

Its probably not practical and there will be some legal bollocks as to why it won’t work but it is about time someone paid for the harm caused.

TorturedParentsDepartment · Yesterday 11:30

You'd never get the well-performing trusts = better pay thing through because you'd just create silos of shit where only the people who can't get a job elsewhere go and things get worse and worse. Also, you get teams like mine - which are fantastic teams but within a really shit Trust - we work our arses off for our client group but the Trust ends up in the media for problems with another clinical area constantly - I'm not suffering (more than we all currently do) cos other services can't get their shit together.

I love my client group, love the area I serve - I could jump ship across a county border to an outstanding Trust (which has quadruple the waiting times for our equivalent service as we do) - that's not going to improve the service for my current patients.

There are issues with accountability, with how hard it is to get unsafe colleagues out of posts they've got into, with the "retired in post" skive mentality - but don't destroy the good along with it - we're the duct tape and optimism holding services together at all!

Ereshkigalangcleg · Yesterday 11:44

NowSober · Yesterday 09:19

The disinformation is in quoting a figure for claims over seven years & then comparing it to an annual budget. £27.4 billion over seven years is about £3.19 billion per year very near to the figure I gave of £3 billion for compensation paid out annually.

The article says the 18 billion in the comparison is the amount which would have been spent on newborns over the same time, not the annual budget. If that’s wrong, thats on the Guardian. Is it wrong? And you didn’t explain anything, you just handwaved it away.

Ereshkigalangcleg · Yesterday 11:47

NowSober · 24/06/2026 13:21

This is totally made up disinformation. The NHS budget is almost £200 billion annually. Pensions cost £17 billion Compensation for clinical negligence is around £3 billion. Unsurprisingly for an organisation employing about 1.8 million people the major cost for the NHS is wages of employees at over £80 billion.

You said this “compensation for clinical negligence” is 3 billion. Are you just referring to maternity here? Because that excludes 60% of claims which aren’t maternity related (I read somewhere, again correct with actual amount if wrong) so the full clinical negligence budget is surely going to be higher, no?

NowSober · Yesterday 12:36

Ereshkigalangcleg · Yesterday 11:47

You said this “compensation for clinical negligence” is 3 billion. Are you just referring to maternity here? Because that excludes 60% of claims which aren’t maternity related (I read somewhere, again correct with actual amount if wrong) so the full clinical negligence budget is surely going to be higher, no?

NHS Resolution (the organisation that deals with compensation) paid out a bit over £3 billion last year. Matermity may be only 40% of claims but will be the majority of the damages paid out as individual cases will be awarded millions for lifelong care.

https://resolution.nhs.uk/2025/07/17/nhs-resolution-resolves-record-numbers-of-compensation-claims-through-collaboration/

NHS Resolution resolves record numbers of compensation claims through collaboration - NHS Resolution

NHS Resolution’s Annual Report and Accounts for 2024/25, published today, highlights a record 83% of clinical claims being resolved without the need for legal proceedings. In line with NHS Resolution’s strategy to keep patients and healthcare staff out...

https://resolution.nhs.uk/2025/07/17/nhs-resolution-resolves-record-numbers-of-compensation-claims-through-collaboration

NowSober · Yesterday 12:41

Ereshkigalangcleg · Yesterday 11:44

The article says the 18 billion in the comparison is the amount which would have been spent on newborns over the same time, not the annual budget. If that’s wrong, thats on the Guardian. Is it wrong? And you didn’t explain anything, you just handwaved it away.

The NHS spends about £5 billion per year on maternity & neonatal services with the latter accounting for a bit under a billion pounds annually.

www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/maternity-and-neonatal-infrastructure-review-findings/

NowSober · Yesterday 12:45

Orangemintcream · Yesterday 11:30

The NHS covering it gives them a reason to cover it up within the trust. Make the individuals get insurance - if they are aided costs go up which will act as a strong reminder to the individual how to behave.

In addition to the above any NHS trust covering up or ignoring issues along the lines of Nottingham - all senior staff should lose a years pay - without being released from their contract so they can’t just quit. Fuck them over make them pay for the mistakes for once.

Its probably not practical and there will be some legal bollocks as to why it won’t work but it is about time someone paid for the harm caused.

You cannot punish individuals financially. It would be grossly unfair. Medicine is a team sport. It's very rare that mistakes made only by one individual was to blame. It's always in the context of staff shortages, inadequate equipment etc etc just as there was at QMC.

Whyherewego · Yesterday 12:46

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/06/2026 23:27

Blame the Guardian then. Figures including legal costs not just damages. Estimated bill:

The £27.4bn figure is the estimated value of maternity claims arising out of incidents since April 2019. NHS Resolution said the figure could change as there is an average three-year gap between an incident and a legal claim, the most serious birth injuries resulting in payments made over several years – and sometimes for the duration of the child’s life. NHS Resolution said the £27.4bn value of maternity claims and the £37.5bn outstanding provision would fluctuate as a result of the Treasury discount rate, the formula used to calculate the value of future compensation payouts.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/jul/20/nhs-facing-absolutely-shocking-27bn-bill-for-maternity-failings-in-england

The Guardian figure is comparing the cost of newborns with the total cost of maternity claims (which includes payments every year to the children damaged in childbirth and so adds up the total lifetime cost of those payments).

Ereshkigalangcleg · Yesterday 13:53

Yes, I know. The pp says its comparing a figure across 7 years with an annual figure. Not according to the Guardian, both figures are based on the period 2019-2026.