Push and pull factors in transitioning

[GCScot]

People's motivations in making a change can be categorised into 'push' and 'pull' factors. 'Push' factors are your dissatisfaction with your current state. 'Pull' factors are the perceived advantages of another state.

I started thinking about the possible push and pull factors for people transitioning their gender. It made me realise that there are two distinct groups:

Group 1 = mainly motivated by push factors. i.e. they are unhappy with their sexed body. They include:

• Women/girls with internalised misogyny

• Gay people with internalised homophobia

• Non-genderconforming autistic people who have internalised sexist stereotypes as fact

• Survivors of abuse/trauma who are trying to protect themselves from future abuse/trauma

Group 2 = mainly motivated by pull factors. i.e. they are attracted to being/being perceived to be the opposite sex. They include:

• People who are sexually aroused by the idea of themselves being the opposite sex (AGP/AAP)

• People who think they can gain a personal advantage (sporting/competitive/sexual access) by claiming to be the opposite sex

Group 1 are mainly children and young adults, especially girls. They have gender dysphoria. Because they are trying to permanently and convincingly escape their sexed bodies, they are more likely to undergo medical modifications (surgery, artificial hormones). They have a diverse range of vulnerabilities as a result of their own personal life experiences and the prejudices of society

Group 2 are mainly adult men. We might say they have gender euphoria. Because they aren't trying to escape their sexed bodies they are unlikely to undergo medical modification, preferring temporary and superficial modifications such as clothes, make up, prosthetics, names and pronouns. The majority of the aggressive vocal TRAs come from this group

TRAs deliberately merge the two groups

They know they can utilise the sincerity, vulnerability and innocence of Group 1:
Trans appears in childhood - it must be innate!
Trans appears in childhood - it can't be sexually motivated!
Trans people have gender dysphoria - they're vulnerable!
Look at the lengths they'll go to (surgery, hormones) - they must be genuine!

But when it comes to the motivations of trans people, the TRAs suddenly switch track. They emphasise the pull factor acting on Group 2 ("wanting to be a wo/man") rather than the push factor acting on Group 1 (trying to escape your sexed body). Because any detailed discussion of just why someone might want to escape their body would raise awkward questions about whether wanting to transition is really a cause for celebration and affirmation.

I think it's very important we distinguish between the two groups when discussing objections to gender ideology. They are very different groups with different motivations and consequences. I think part of the reason so many trans allies are resistant to changing their opinions or even discussing the issue is because most of the trans people they know are Group 1s. They recognise these people's sincerity and vulnerability and have been duped by Group 2 TRAs into not examining the underlying push and pull factors of transition

And yet, there are male people in the media who had taken puberty blockers at the earliest opportunity and still are able to be reliably correctly identified as being male.

You might not be able to reliably correctly identify the sex category of male people, but please don’t assume that your experience is typical.

If you don't think this is happening you are completely delusional

The category can be "man who presents as a woman" without it leading to any friction. Assuming that anyone who shows no problem around a trans person necessarily sees them as the other sex is unfounded.

Yes, sorry, I probably didn't phrase that properly

I was thinking about some men cynically claiming a trans identity that they don't genuinely believe in order to access spaces where women are naked and/or vulnerable. In this way they can get sexual access in the form of voyeurism/exhibitionism/sexual assault

Whereas I don't think many women would need - or want - to resort to gatecrashing men's toilets in order to see naked men or get laid. Just my opinion!

Half of the TRA organise Transgender Day of Visibility so that we can be taught how to act with a trans person.

Then the other half can pretend that we simply don't know they are men.

I think that’s a bit of a stretch. It assumes every single interaction is taking place with someone who is just being kind. We live in a world where that is an impossibility.

Thank you @Seethlaw , I appreciate you contributing so thoughtfully. I hope I haven't offended you in the way I spoke about trans people. I genuinely do want to understand

Not kind, just practical. Why would they not treat trans people as we want to be treated? Why would they go out of their way to antagonise us? There would be literally no point to them doing that.

Just to be clear: I have personal experience of this. Entirely pleasant people all around me - some of whom have at one time or another slipped up and revealed that they don't actually see me as a man.

Don't worry, I'm hard to offend :P And hey, I know where I'm posting :D I'm happy to answer any question people might have.

I’m sorry you’ve had the experience of people slipping up and revealing they don’t see you as a man. That is exactly the kind of social friction I am talking about. Those slip-ups are the signs that show you how people actually perceive you. But slip-ups like that aren’t a universal experience.

Why would they not treat trans people as we want to be treated?
I completely agree that some people absolutely would do that, but there are people out there who wouldn’t hesitate to antagonise a trans person. Some people wouldn’t go out of their way to be rude but may still express confusion.

But slip-ups like that aren’t a universal experience.

Seriously? You think the vast majority of trans identifying people are not correctly identified by their sex with relative frequency?

I chatted to a young woman at the park last month - I congratulated her on having a mullet and actually making it look good, which as a child of the 1980s I thought impossible. She said "you should see my boyfriend's, his is even better."

A few moments later her partner, a petite young woman, joined us. She had the distinctive voice of a woman on testosterone and was clearly a transman. We continued to chat and I was friendly and polite, but in no way did I perceive this 5'2" lass with tiny hands and female hips and shoulders as a bloke.

There is a relatively high population of trans identifying people in my multi-university city. A number of my children's friends are trans, and a number of my friends' children are trans. We are all WELL aware of what sex they are.

people slipping up and revealing they don’t see you as a man.

What a bizarre way to say that some people recognise sex even in someone who has taken steps to conceal their actual sex.

They're not 'slipping up', they're just speaking honestly according to observations that they've made about the person in front of them.

You can only say it's slipping up if there's an expectation that people will always ignore their own observations and participate in the fantasy that someone has changed sex even when their actual sex is completely obvious.

That is exactly the kind of social friction I am talking about.

I wouldn't call that friction at all, personally.

But slip-ups like that aren’t a universal experience.

Really? I mean, go on trans forums, and read all the posts where people lament being misgendered or clocked, sometimes months after they thought they passed perfectly, and bazillions of people answer with their own similar experiences. It may not be universal, but it's certainly very common.

No, they are not "being kind."

They are being polite,

• or they are true believers in gender ideology,
• or they are complying because of Vaclav Havel's Grocer parable
• or they work for an organisation captured by trans ideology and can't afford to risk their livelihood
• or they have kids caught up in this and can't risk alienation
• or they bought Stonewall's lie that this is the new gay rights battle
• or they think every transwoman has had his penis cut off and years of medical interventions and is like that nice woman on Coronation Street

Kind is only the thin edge of the wedge.

Exactly. When people get clocked, it breaks through into reality, causes an interaction or a slip-up, and they notice it. If it's common but explicitly not universal, then we agree. Some people experience that constant friction, and some live entirely frictionless lives

Why would they not treat trans people as we want to be treated?
I completely agree that some people absolutely would do that, but there are people out there who wouldn’t hesitate to antagonise a trans person. Some people wouldn’t go out of their way to be rude but may still express confusion.

@OneDarkDeer you describe ‘they may express confusion’ as ‘not how we want to be treated’.
Do you see that you can’t expect people not to express confusion when they are indeed confused?
You can’t expect the world to see you as the other sex, simply by wanting it. You are free to present as you wish, but other people’s brains will always process the information in the way that makes sense to them.
-petite person with small hands and a whispy beard- trans identifying female.
-person in dress with masculine gait and exaggerated feminine mannerisms- trans identifying male.

Men larping as women seem to take women not yelling at them 'you're a man' as evidence that they are seen as women.

Its complete nonsense. Virtually no man 'passes' as a woman.

To give you an example. My son belongs to a club as part of a hobby he is into. There is a trans identified man in this club. I had never met this man, but my husband told me about him.

This weekend I met him for the first time and not only did he not pass as a woman, but it took me a significant amount of time to figure out that he was the trans identified man in question. He just looks like a man with long hair. I eventually clocked the boobs and 'girly' t shirt. But he looks 100% male.

Perhaps he thinks he passes as no one explicitly calls him out. But it couldn't be further from the truth.

Do you see that you can’t expect people not to express confusion when they are indeed confused?
You can’t expect the world to see you as the other sex, simply by wanting it.
Yes, thank you! That is exactly my point. There is nothing stopping those things from happening if people see you as ambiguous or not as the sex you’re presenting as.

The lack of those things happening is an indication that you blend in well.

If you didn’t know there was a trans women there, would you have just referred to him as a man?

Yes

Or an indication of them resolving their confusion fast enough to mask it. I would hate to make someone uncomfortable so have never done the ‘looking someone up and down’ thing. The corners of my eyes are exceptional at gathering more info while I carefully look elsewhere so as not to unsettle someone.

Every single person always resolves their confusion instantly?

So it seems pretty improbable that this person thinks they pass if people who don’t know her just see a man

I have no idea what this person thinks, but there is certainly none of the social 'friction' you are talking about.

Can you name a celebrity who, if we didnt know they were trans, would experience frictionless social interactions?