Push and pull factors in transitioning

[GCScot]

People's motivations in making a change can be categorised into 'push' and 'pull' factors. 'Push' factors are your dissatisfaction with your current state. 'Pull' factors are the perceived advantages of another state.

I started thinking about the possible push and pull factors for people transitioning their gender. It made me realise that there are two distinct groups:

Group 1 = mainly motivated by push factors. i.e. they are unhappy with their sexed body. They include:

• Women/girls with internalised misogyny

• Gay people with internalised homophobia

• Non-genderconforming autistic people who have internalised sexist stereotypes as fact

• Survivors of abuse/trauma who are trying to protect themselves from future abuse/trauma

Group 2 = mainly motivated by pull factors. i.e. they are attracted to being/being perceived to be the opposite sex. They include:

• People who are sexually aroused by the idea of themselves being the opposite sex (AGP/AAP)

• People who think they can gain a personal advantage (sporting/competitive/sexual access) by claiming to be the opposite sex

Group 1 are mainly children and young adults, especially girls. They have gender dysphoria. Because they are trying to permanently and convincingly escape their sexed bodies, they are more likely to undergo medical modifications (surgery, artificial hormones). They have a diverse range of vulnerabilities as a result of their own personal life experiences and the prejudices of society

Group 2 are mainly adult men. We might say they have gender euphoria. Because they aren't trying to escape their sexed bodies they are unlikely to undergo medical modification, preferring temporary and superficial modifications such as clothes, make up, prosthetics, names and pronouns. The majority of the aggressive vocal TRAs come from this group

TRAs deliberately merge the two groups

They know they can utilise the sincerity, vulnerability and innocence of Group 1:
Trans appears in childhood - it must be innate!
Trans appears in childhood - it can't be sexually motivated!
Trans people have gender dysphoria - they're vulnerable!
Look at the lengths they'll go to (surgery, hormones) - they must be genuine!

But when it comes to the motivations of trans people, the TRAs suddenly switch track. They emphasise the pull factor acting on Group 2 ("wanting to be a wo/man") rather than the push factor acting on Group 1 (trying to escape your sexed body). Because any detailed discussion of just why someone might want to escape their body would raise awkward questions about whether wanting to transition is really a cause for celebration and affirmation.

I think it's very important we distinguish between the two groups when discussing objections to gender ideology. They are very different groups with different motivations and consequences. I think part of the reason so many trans allies are resistant to changing their opinions or even discussing the issue is because most of the trans people they know are Group 1s. They recognise these people's sincerity and vulnerability and have been duped by Group 2 TRAs into not examining the underlying push and pull factors of transition

No, because whoever I name will never meet your impossible standards. You will pick out some feature that wouldn’t even register if you didn’t know. Knowledge changes perception.

Why are you so keen for women to see these men as women when you yourself said that they are male?

There really is a difference between people being polite enough, or unsure of their safety enough not to comment, and people not actually clocking that someone is trans.

I do think that trans women truly do not understand being female, and what it means to have navigated the world in a weaker, more vulnerable body our whole lives. The knowledge that we can be badly hurt if a man chooses to do so is ingrained.

Women are not about to pick a fight with a trans women in a female space if they are on their own by saying “oi you’re a man!”

Any man who has managed to convince himself that he is a woman is going to find it quite straightforward to convince himself that all his social interactions are frictionless.

Do you have anything other than bad faith arguments? I never said I’m keen for them to be seen as women, just that some will be seen that way

But everyone here is telling you that's not the case.

Also you may have mistaken an argument for a question. You do seem invested in convincing women that they can't tell. I merely asked what your motivation for that is, as I'm interested.

An echo chamber agreeing with itself doesn't make an illogical argument logical

All evidence to the contrary
We see it all the time. These men are entirely pandered to and given grovelling amounts of validation BECAUSE EVERYONE KNOWS THEY ARE MEN.
They are NOT treated like women are.

These 'impossible standards' you reference are simply females recognising male physiology, no matter what the make up / hair / dress.

I cannot think of a single trans identifying man in the public eye that genuinely passes. Not even the ones who were puberty blocked.

But you can't give any actual examples ...

Yes, I think this makes sense. They're experiencing both push and pull factors. Not wanting to be misfits/unpopular = push; wanting to find a tribe/appreciation/understanding = pull?

What about NikkieTutorials? She was under the spotlight for many years, and it was a complete shock when she was forced to come out.

For anyone who doesn't know nikkie, Google 2021 eurovision presenters and guess who we are talking about.

It’s easy to look back with hindsight, but it was legitimately shocking to people when she was forced to come out

Well it's a pickle. I'm going to assume not the one in the suit 😆

Agree.

I have never made a trans person aware that I am aware that they are not the sex they are presenting as (you follow that? 😂)

For the nice trans people I am well acquainted with it is out of consideration for their wishes

For the 6 foot tall trans-identifying male I once met who I knew to be an aggressive TRA who had hounded a woman out of her job for her perceived terfery... It was out of fear

Those who were shocked only saw him on YouTube. Do you really think he had frictionless interactions in everyday life?

If he passed so perfectly how did it come to be that he was forced to come out?

From a strict, traditional scientific standpoint, both mental illness & internal gender identity relies on personal, subjective reporting rather than a universally observable or measurable biological benchmark.

So GC's can't have it both ways where they assert self reporting isn't a legitimate measure of evidence.

Realistically the vast vast majority of my daily interactions nobody cares whether I'm a man or a woman. If I occasionally feel they might be treating me differently because of my sex I object, and try to find ways to steer the conversation back onto a neutral track.

It's easy to see why feminists are clashing with trans activists if the latter want our entire relationship with the world to be based on not even our actual sex but some voluntarily adopted feelings based category loosely associated with it. No! I want to be treated as a human being, a technically competent and domestically incompetent one as I happen to be. If anyone wants to relate to me as they expect women to relate, frankly, they're going to find the interaction disappointing.

Unless with very good friends I might want to talk about our experiences of pregnancy and menopause and things, and I'm certainly not including a transwoman in that, that would be cruel.

"Unless with very good friends I might want to talk about our experiences of pregnancy and menopause and things, and I'm certainly not including a transwoman in that, that would be cruel."

So are you suggesting other than conversations about reproductive issues, men & women's conversational content on average is identical?

Because that would be as ludicrous as saying their bodies are.

We can observe when a man says that he is a woman and that he claims it is because of his "internal gender identity" being female. But this is just evidence that some men believe this about themselves, not that some men are women.

There is a man living nearby who walks his two dogs around the field wearing a tutu. He’s grown his hair long and wears loads of make up. He is not a woman and terrifies me when we cross paths. Group 2 for sure.

That's irrelevant to the point being made here which is about the standard of legitimacy being consistent.

The OP makes a whole bunch of unfalsifiable claims as to why trans people exist but at the same time claim that being trans is illegitimate because it is unfalsifiable.

You can't have it both ways.