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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hampstead Ponds update today

306 replies

WallaceinAnderland · Yesterday 19:25

I'm not sure that this is in line with the law.

They need to label all 3 ponds as mixed sex.

https://news.cityoflondon.gov.uk/hampstead-heaths-bathing-ponds-to-remain-trans-inclusive-spaces-as-city-corporation-agrees-future-access-policy/

OP posts:
ElenOfTheWays · Today 04:13

SomeGarlic · Yesterday 21:06

Extremely long post warning.

The SC judgement is a beautiful work, clarifying - NOT changing - the Equality Act 2010. Below are some extracts to illustrate the logic, especially where it is being repeatedly and obstinately misinterpreted by transgenderists.

134. First, to demonstrate less favourable treatment in subsection (1) an actual or hypothetical comparator is often relied on to demonstrate that a person without the relevant protected characteristic was or would have been treated more favourably by person A. Such a comparator (actual or hypothetical) must be a person who does not share B’s protected characteristic. Section 23(1) makes clear that, apart from the protected characteristic, there must be “no material difference between the circumstances relating to each case” when determining whether B has been treated less favourably. Accordingly, where sex is the protected characteristic, a woman relying on section 13(1) must compare her treatment with the treatment that was or would have been afforded to a man whose Page 40 circumstances are not materially different to hers; in other words, a similarly situated man. Where gender reassignment is the protected characteristic, in the case of a male person proposing to or undergoing gender reassignment to the opposite sex, the correct comparator is likely to be a man without the protected characteristic of gender reassignment and similarly for a woman (although there may be situations where the comparator’s sex is immaterial to the comparison). See for example, Croft v Royal Mail Group plc [2003] EWCA Civ 1045, [2003] ICR 1425 at para 74.

A male person proposing gender reassignment is NOT discriminated against by exclusion from the Ladies' Pond because, like all other men, he may use the Men's and the Mixed Ponds.

142. The EA 2010 is also concerned to prohibit disguised discrimination which operates at a group level. This is important as Michael Foran explains (in an article entitled “Defining Sex in Law” (2025) 141 LQR 76, 91–92:

“Arguments concerning the definition of a protected characteristic are never simply manifestations of individual claims. They are always group orientated. The claim that one is a woman is a claim to be included within a particular category of persons and to be excluded from another. It is also a claim to include some persons and to exclude other persons within the group that one is a part of. This matters especially for aspects of the Equality Act 2010 which require duty-bearers to be cognisant of how their conduct might affect those who share a protected characteristic or where there is an obligation to account for the distinct needs and interests of those who share a particular characteristic.”

In allowing men to use the Ladies' Pond - and/or women to use the Men's Pond - the committee must consider its duties to users having the protected characteristic of sex who, for religious or other reasons, cannot share an unclothed environment with members of the opposite sex.

144. First, the provisions concerning indirect discrimination are specifically directed at the problem of group discrimination and their purpose is to counter group (not individual) disadvantage. They operate where an apparently neutral policy or practice is applied generally to everyone but produces a disproportionate disadvantage for a particular group with a shared protected characteristic. Indirect discrimination is defined by sections 19 and/or 19A of the EA 2010. Section 19(1) and (2) provide that indirect discrimination occurs when a person (A) applies to another (B) a “provision, criterion or practice” (generally referred to as a “PCP”) if:

“(a) A applies, or would apply, it to persons with whom B does not share the characteristic,

"(b) it puts, or would put, persons with whom B shares the characteristic at a particular disadvantage when compared with persons with whom B does not share it,

"(c) it puts, or would put, B at that disadvantage, and Page 44 (d) A cannot show it to be a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.”

If you allow people with the characteristic of gender reassignment into all three ponds, you have privileged them in comparison to people with the characteristic of sex, who may only use two. This is indirect discrimination. It's also direct discrimination in light of 134 above.

168. Section 11 of the EA 2010 provides: “In relation to the protected characteristic of sex—

(a) a reference to a person who has a particular protected characteristic is a reference to a man or to a woman;

(b) a reference to persons who share a protected characteristic is a reference to persons of the same sex.”

169. The only other guidance as to the meaning of these expressions is given in the general interpretation provisions in section 212(1) which provide:

“In this Act … ‘man’ means a male of any age; … ‘woman’ means a female of any age.

170. In other words, what is made unlawful is sex discrimination against women and men; and the provision in section 212(1) ensures that boys and girls are protected against discrimination connected to their sex.

Speaks for itself. The committee seems to have disregarded its duty to ensure it doesn't discriminate against men or women.

173. Moreover, it makes no sense for conduct under the EA 2010 in relation to sex based rights and protections to be regulated on a practical day-to-day basis by reference to categories that can only be ascertained by knowledge of who possesses a (confidential) certificate. Some of the practical consequences of a certificated sex definition are described in the case presented by Sex Matters. They state that uncertainty and ambiguity about the circumstances in which it is legitimate to treat (biological) women and girls as a distinct group whose interests need to be considered and protected, have the effect that many organisations now feel inhibited in doing so.

175. It is significant, however, that there is only one definition of sex. The concept of sex is of foundational importance in the EA 2010. The words sex and woman appear across different parts of the Act and in many sections. It would be surprising if the words sex and woman were intended to have different meanings in different sections or parts of the EA 2010, as the Inner House concluded, especially given the definitions of “man” and “woman” in section 212(1) of the EA 2010. Indeed, it would offend against the principle of legal certainty and the need for a meaning which is constant and predictable, especially in the context of an Act with the purposes we have identified, and which has such practical everyday consequences for so many individuals and organisations in society.

185. There are also provisions in the EA 2010 that allow for differential treatment afforded by service-providers and others to protect the health and safety of women generally and pregnant women in particular. In other words, what would otherwise amount to unlawful discrimination in regulated activities is not unlawful by virtue of these provisions.

The court goes on to show that discrimination is lawful if it favours the protection of women, even if it might be unlawful when applied to a different group.

It then explains why the Scottish government was wrong to introduce the concept of variable definitions of sex. As above, this offends against the principle of legal clarity.

199. Accordingly, the EA 2010 recognises sex and gender reassignment as distinct and separate bases for discrimination and inequality, giving separate protection to each. Those who have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment are referred to as “a transsexual person” (section 7(3)(a)), not as a “trans” woman or man. There is no distinction drawn in section 7 or elsewhere between those for whom the relevant process would involve reassignment male to female or female to male. In other words, it is the attribute of proposing to undergo, undergoing or having undergone a process (or part of Page 60 a process) for the purpose of reassignment, which is the common factor, not the sex into which the person is reassigned.

This is important, and needs repetition because it is being persistently flouted. Discrimination against a 'trans' person is discrimination against them for being 'trans', not discrimination against the sex into which they identify. They cannot suffer sex discrimination against their 'assigned' sex, because they do not meet the criteria specified in 168, 169, 170.

They can, however, claim discrimination against their perceived sex:

251. Take, for example, a trans woman who applies for a job as a sales representative and the sales manager thinks that she is a biological woman because of her appearance and does not offer her the job even though she performed best at interview and gives the job instead to a biological man. She would have a claim for direct discrimination because of her perceived sex and her comparator would be someone who is not perceived to be a woman. The fact that she is not a biological woman should make no difference to her claim, which would be treated in the same way as a direct discrimination claim made by a biological woman based on the sex of the complainant herself.

256. Applied, for example, to the case of a trans woman with a GRC, who presents as a woman at work and is perceived as a woman, and whose trans status and GRC are confidential: if a colleague harasses her (by making sexualised references to what she is wearing, or degrading comments about how she looks) she can bring a claim for harassment related to sex. She can also bring a harassment claim related to the protected characteristic of gender reassignment but may not wish to do so.

This is long section about remedies available to 'trans women' relating to discrimination against their perceived sex. It treats entirely with situations in which the person is clothed, and may be perceived as a female. Hampstead Ponds involve swimming and sunbathing naked, with changing facilities also involving communal nudity. Vanishingly few 'trans women' could be perceived as female without clothes on - and, if they were, it's unlikely they'd be challenged. Ditto for 'trans men' using the Men's Pond.

There's a lot more very sensible commentary before the above, on collisions between acquired gender and biological sex, with special mention for lesbians, who cannot be forced by the law to include opposite-sex 'women' in their same-sex gatherings. Circumstances such as medical provisions and communal changing or sleeping facilities, sports, single-sex charities and data collection are also examined with detailed logic.

The overriding principle when applying the EA2010 is whether an inclusion or exclusion is proportionate and reasonable. It can't be proportionate or reasonable to include people of one protected characteristic (reassignment) in all provisions, where this inclusion forces the exclusion of others of another protected characteristic (religion, age, disability or, indeed sex) on privacy & dignity grounds.

If this post wasn't long enough for you, here's the full text: supremecourt.uk/uploads/uksc_2024_0042_judgment_aea6c48cee.pdf

The government should have asked you to write the guidance. That was clear as crystal. Thank you

Cailin66 · Today 07:15

TransParentlyAnnoyed · Today 00:36

You do know swimming pools in every twin and city are mixed-gender, right?

The ponds are an oddity, and residents are quite happy to let the very few trans women turning up swim where they want. Maybe respect their choice?

Hoaxer thing is quite funny, well done. As if any man ever needs to dress up to assault women.

The bigger issue is lack of access to any wild swimming across London - these are the last swimming ponds left there, and confined to a well-off area.

Working-class women and girls across the country need greater access to cheap, outdoor, safe swimming areas - as shown by all the deaths last week.

In the UK do public swimming pools often have closed sessions that are women only? Because some women are forbidden by their religion (eg Islam) to be in close proximity to males.

LlynTegid · Today 07:17

Featured on the local BBC news part of BBC Breakfast and the court case from Sex Matters was referred to. Along with the entrance to the Ladies Pond and the clear sign it is women only.

JacketPotatoFoodOfTheGods · Today 07:19

Ffs.

Shortshriftandlethal · Today 07:27

TransParentlyAnnoyed · Today 00:36

You do know swimming pools in every twin and city are mixed-gender, right?

The ponds are an oddity, and residents are quite happy to let the very few trans women turning up swim where they want. Maybe respect their choice?

Hoaxer thing is quite funny, well done. As if any man ever needs to dress up to assault women.

The bigger issue is lack of access to any wild swimming across London - these are the last swimming ponds left there, and confined to a well-off area.

Working-class women and girls across the country need greater access to cheap, outdoor, safe swimming areas - as shown by all the deaths last week.

There is sno such thing as a 'mixed gender' session but there are many pools which operate women only sessions so that women and girls can swim free from the presence of men; and increasingly many gyms and saunas are implementing these single sex sessions too. In fact, there has been a surge in women only gyms in recent times.

Most of the deaths, every year, in lakes, rivers, reservoirs and in open sea are of young men.

nicepotoftea · Today 07:37

TransParentlyAnnoyed · Today 02:34

Something being lawful doesn't mean it's correct, or reflect what people want, certainly. Section 28 was lawful.

Women tend to stand together against pointless, petty bigotry. We know that stopping fully-clothes trans women piping meringues with their friends isn't feminism, or safeguarding. Nor is going on about a pond.

If they aren’t complying with one of the exceptions in the Equality Act then they are just randomly discriminating.

Do you think sex discrimination should be legal just because an organisation has a poll? Can Reform councillors do that too?

If on tbe other hand all the pools are now mixed sex and open to all, I’m sure many women will enjoy swimming in the larger men’s pond and I can only assume that they will be made welcome.

Theeyeballsinthesky · Today 08:09

Cailin66 · Today 07:15

In the UK do public swimming pools often have closed sessions that are women only? Because some women are forbidden by their religion (eg Islam) to be in close proximity to males.

Edited

There certainly used to be but the TRA got them either stopped or replaced with "anyone who identifies as a woman" swimming sessions. Any leisure centre advertising women only usually has a policy underneath which allows self id

www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/list_of_council_funded_women_onl_30/response/2353922/attach/3/37339022.docx?cookie_passthrough=1

TheKeatingFive · Today 08:13

TransParentlyAnnoyed · Today 02:34

Something being lawful doesn't mean it's correct, or reflect what people want, certainly. Section 28 was lawful.

Women tend to stand together against pointless, petty bigotry. We know that stopping fully-clothes trans women piping meringues with their friends isn't feminism, or safeguarding. Nor is going on about a pond.

No. Women's rights to single sex spaces (not gendered spaces) are enshrined in law. Deal with it.

Beowulfa · Today 08:33

I am totally up for identifying as man-gender and going in the men's pond. It's only men complaining that will change anything.

MyThreeWords · Today 08:39

TheKeatingFive · Today 08:13

No. Women's rights to single sex spaces (not gendered spaces) are enshrined in law. Deal with it.

But only where it is a proportionate response to a legit need. If there are adequately private changing facilities (and apparently these are going to be upgraded to ensure they meet the relevant standards), surely there is no legal requirement for single-sex swimming to be provided.

The legal challenge would need to come from non-trans-identified men (in the ladies pond) and non-trans-identified women (in the men's pond). And even then, for the challenge to succeed, they would have to prove some sort of detriment, presumably? Which would be hard if the men's and ladies ponds offered similar benefits to one another - and even harder because of the existence of an everyone-welcome mixed-sex pond.

Also, regarding the names of the ponds, the Equality Act doesn't directly state rules about the naming of facilities as such. It just holds that calling a service single-sex when it isn't in fact single sex (bcs there are transwomen using it) is legally null in the sense that it doesn't do anything to establish that the provider is making needful provisions for women.

Possibly consumer laws might entail restrictions on the name?? -- at any rate they would require the pond providers to make it absolutely clear that the ladies pond wasn't single sex.

Although personally i feel really sad that the women's pond can't be left alone by men, I'm starting to feel that if it is genuinely true that a majority of users prefer the trans-inclusive arrangements, these arrangements should be allowed to stand,

Theeyeballsinthesky · Today 08:44

they don't have to provide any single sex ponds if they don't want - they just have to clearly label the ponds as such

"If it's genuinely true" lol - we're very familiar with the city of London 'consultations' driven by the NB Edward Lord who disregarded all the consultation responses that disagreed with his stance around 'gender neutral toilets'

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/3650789-Advice-please-Edward-Lord-1-what-has-he-done-that-is-so-appalling-2-has-everything-been-decided

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4572896-tra-on-tribunal-panel-for-school-gender-identity-cass

TheKeatingFive · Today 08:57

MyThreeWords · Today 08:39

But only where it is a proportionate response to a legit need. If there are adequately private changing facilities (and apparently these are going to be upgraded to ensure they meet the relevant standards), surely there is no legal requirement for single-sex swimming to be provided.

The legal challenge would need to come from non-trans-identified men (in the ladies pond) and non-trans-identified women (in the men's pond). And even then, for the challenge to succeed, they would have to prove some sort of detriment, presumably? Which would be hard if the men's and ladies ponds offered similar benefits to one another - and even harder because of the existence of an everyone-welcome mixed-sex pond.

Also, regarding the names of the ponds, the Equality Act doesn't directly state rules about the naming of facilities as such. It just holds that calling a service single-sex when it isn't in fact single sex (bcs there are transwomen using it) is legally null in the sense that it doesn't do anything to establish that the provider is making needful provisions for women.

Possibly consumer laws might entail restrictions on the name?? -- at any rate they would require the pond providers to make it absolutely clear that the ladies pond wasn't single sex.

Although personally i feel really sad that the women's pond can't be left alone by men, I'm starting to feel that if it is genuinely true that a majority of users prefer the trans-inclusive arrangements, these arrangements should be allowed to stand,

Even if it were true, why do you think 'a majority of users' should get to overrule the law?

Of a majority of a car club (random example) wanted to overrule the law on speed limits, would that be okay also?

Cantunseeit · Today 09:08

PencilsInSpace · Today 02:32

Thinking about this more, I bet they'll try to rely on that bit out of the failed GLP judicial review against EHRC that JM tried to spin as a 'win'.

From para 61 of the judgment:

In a case where the provision of separate lavatories labelled male and female was materially similar in terms of the extent of the provision, location, and so on, I consider there would, in principle, be scope for a strong argument that a rule or practice that permitted trans women to use the “female” lavatory but required other biological men to use the male lavatory would comprise different but not less favourable treatment on grounds of sex.

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2026/02/good-law-project-EHRC-AC-2025-1953-judgment-13Feb26.pdf

They will argue that because there is a men's pond, it's not direct discrimination to exclude men without the PC of gender reassignment from the ladies' pond while admitting men with the PC of GR.

This ignores that the judge's comment was 'obiter' (in passing) and so does not create a legal precedent. It also says nothing about claims that could be brought by female users of the ponds for indirect discrimination and harassment.

Lots of discussion on this thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5489699-glp-v-ehrc-judgement-is-coming-tomorrow?page=4&reply=150499153

No doubt, but the end of that paragraph makes clear that in this case the “female” lavatory would be mixed sex.

Reading that paragraph in the context of earlier paragraphs makes clear (to me and IANAL although I can read) that failure to provide single sex facilities for women (even if mixed provision is available) would be indirect discrimination towards women.

This is currently the case at Hampstead, it’s all mixed sex.

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · Today 09:17

TransParentlyAnnoyed · Today 00:36

You do know swimming pools in every twin and city are mixed-gender, right?

The ponds are an oddity, and residents are quite happy to let the very few trans women turning up swim where they want. Maybe respect their choice?

Hoaxer thing is quite funny, well done. As if any man ever needs to dress up to assault women.

The bigger issue is lack of access to any wild swimming across London - these are the last swimming ponds left there, and confined to a well-off area.

Working-class women and girls across the country need greater access to cheap, outdoor, safe swimming areas - as shown by all the deaths last week.

Hello again, are you going to answer the question I've asked you on other threads that you never reply to, about what you do with the working class women and girls (and ones from other classes too) who need all this health access but have disabilities, trauma, different faiths and religions who cannot use mixed sex spaces?

Why do you feel it's so vital that men have three choosy choices of pool which requires women to have none at all?

How is this 'inclusive'? Or just not plain male supremacist?

I know you don't care and don't have the guts to own this, but it's a bit ridiculous trying to hug heart strings about your supposed passion for 'working class' women and girls when you're vigorously pushing an agenda across multiple threads to exclude them from society altogether. One would think you only ever see women and girls in terms of how they provide you with useful manipulative leverage instead of as equal humans you have any real or actual care for.

Cantunseeit · Today 09:21

Of course a swimming pond is not a toilet so the thinking is not directly applicable. However the purpose of single sex toilets for privacy, dignity and propriety could potentially read across? Not to mention the need for separate toilets and changing facilities at the newly mixed sex ponds.

It all seems an awful lot of effort when there’s a mixed sex pond already that everyone can enjoy.

GreyskySexRealistsky · Today 09:24

It all seems an awful lot of effort when there’s a mixed sex pond already that everyone can enjoy.

This. This is GI ideology writ large. There was a man's pond. A women's pond. A mixed pond. All the facilities were already there, no money needed to be spent (except perhaps for some upgrading). But they didn't want the mixed pond. They want the women's pond. The mixed pond is not enough. Nothing is ever going to be enough.

nicepotoftea · Today 09:26

MyThreeWords · Today 08:39

But only where it is a proportionate response to a legit need. If there are adequately private changing facilities (and apparently these are going to be upgraded to ensure they meet the relevant standards), surely there is no legal requirement for single-sex swimming to be provided.

The legal challenge would need to come from non-trans-identified men (in the ladies pond) and non-trans-identified women (in the men's pond). And even then, for the challenge to succeed, they would have to prove some sort of detriment, presumably? Which would be hard if the men's and ladies ponds offered similar benefits to one another - and even harder because of the existence of an everyone-welcome mixed-sex pond.

Also, regarding the names of the ponds, the Equality Act doesn't directly state rules about the naming of facilities as such. It just holds that calling a service single-sex when it isn't in fact single sex (bcs there are transwomen using it) is legally null in the sense that it doesn't do anything to establish that the provider is making needful provisions for women.

Possibly consumer laws might entail restrictions on the name?? -- at any rate they would require the pond providers to make it absolutely clear that the ladies pond wasn't single sex.

Although personally i feel really sad that the women's pond can't be left alone by men, I'm starting to feel that if it is genuinely true that a majority of users prefer the trans-inclusive arrangements, these arrangements should be allowed to stand,

And even then, for the challenge to succeed, they would have to prove some sort of detriment, presumably? Which would be hard if the men's and ladies ponds offered similar benefits to one another

I think it would be difficult to show that the ponds are identical.

Although personally i feel really sad that the women's pond can't be left alone by men, I'm starting to feel that if it is genuinely true that a majority of users prefer the trans-inclusive arrangements, these arrangements should be allowed to stand,

I don't think service users should be able to vote on whether equality legislation applies.

MyThreeWords · Today 09:29

TheKeatingFive · Today 08:57

Even if it were true, why do you think 'a majority of users' should get to overrule the law?

Of a majority of a car club (random example) wanted to overrule the law on speed limits, would that be okay also?

Of course they shouldn't. But my post was suggesting ways in which it can be argued that the trans-inclusive arrangements don't in fact break the law.

TheKeatingFive · Today 09:33

MyThreeWords · Today 09:29

Of course they shouldn't. But my post was suggesting ways in which it can be argued that the trans-inclusive arrangements don't in fact break the law.

No, they do break the law.

Allowing one specific subset of men into a woman's group while excluding other men is discriminatory.

Hedgehogforshort · Today 09:34

MyThreeWords · Today 09:29

Of course they shouldn't. But my post was suggesting ways in which it can be argued that the trans-inclusive arrangements don't in fact break the law.

Ha, it cannot be argued at all the SC ruling has seen to that.

nicepotoftea · Today 09:37

TransParentlyAnnoyed · Today 02:34

Something being lawful doesn't mean it's correct, or reflect what people want, certainly. Section 28 was lawful.

Women tend to stand together against pointless, petty bigotry. We know that stopping fully-clothes trans women piping meringues with their friends isn't feminism, or safeguarding. Nor is going on about a pond.

Interesting argument given that you apparently want to remove sexual orientation from the list of protected characteristics in the Equality Act.

We know that stopping fully-clothes trans women piping meringues with their friends isn't feminism, or safeguarding.

I don't think anyone has prevented anyone from piping meringues with their friends.

ConstanzeMozart · Today 09:37

I'll be gardening for the High Court case.

MyThreeWords · Today 09:39

TheKeatingFive · Today 09:33

No, they do break the law.

Allowing one specific subset of men into a woman's group while excluding other men is discriminatory.

Not quite. The Equality Act entails that it may discriminate against the men who are not allowed in. But whether or not it is actually discriminatory would depend on the details of the individual case brought. And I think that the men would have to show that they had suffered some detriment? IANAL etc.

Shortshriftandlethal · Today 09:44

Theeyeballsinthesky · Today 08:09

There certainly used to be but the TRA got them either stopped or replaced with "anyone who identifies as a woman" swimming sessions. Any leisure centre advertising women only usually has a policy underneath which allows self id

www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/list_of_council_funded_women_onl_30/response/2353922/attach/3/37339022.docx?cookie_passthrough=1

Where I live women only sessions ( specifically for muslim women and girls) have been created - and this means exactly what it says.I have long suspected that this is what would happen......that Muslims would create their own female only schools, services and facilities to avoid the madness of 'inclusion'.

TheKeatingFive · Today 09:47

MyThreeWords · Today 09:39

Not quite. The Equality Act entails that it may discriminate against the men who are not allowed in. But whether or not it is actually discriminatory would depend on the details of the individual case brought. And I think that the men would have to show that they had suffered some detriment? IANAL etc.

No I don't think so. How would you justify offering a service that includes all women and some men but not others?