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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hampstead Ponds update today

306 replies

WallaceinAnderland · Yesterday 19:25

I'm not sure that this is in line with the law.

They need to label all 3 ponds as mixed sex.

https://news.cityoflondon.gov.uk/hampstead-heaths-bathing-ponds-to-remain-trans-inclusive-spaces-as-city-corporation-agrees-future-access-policy/

OP posts:
Jimmyneutronsforehead · Yesterday 20:52

Hedgehogforshort · Yesterday 20:41

they have indeed. The word ladies pond is another word for female or woman, and has its ordinary meaning of biological female at birth as per the EQA and as such must be for biological women only.

The two characteristics thing is about associations.

In any event Sex Matters won their appeal so its back to a judicial review for this nonsense.

I would even go so far as to say because they've left the Men's pond as the Men's pond, not the gents or lads pond, by extension they are aware the the Ladies pond is for women by their own meaning.

HenriettaSwanLeavitt · Yesterday 20:56

nicepotoftea · Yesterday 19:43

Isn't the 2 protected characteristics thing only relevant to associations?

Yes, I think so and there seems to be some confusion over whether it can be Women + TW or whether it would have to be Women + anyone with PC of GR.
Either way the Ponds are open to the public so not an association.

MabelAnderson · Yesterday 20:59

nicepotoftea · Yesterday 19:45

It was clear that the Man Friday action was a protest so I think they could argue that they were not seriously identifying as men.

But if there were just an uptick in women using the pond would they be able to complain?

Edited

Sensible for women to use the men’s pond now, as it’s full of men who don’t want to be around semi naked women. A lot safer than the women’s pond which now has men who very much want to be around semi naked women.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · Yesterday 21:00

Yes, indeed, 38,000.

Seriously, someone is actually suggesting that 38,000 people use the ponds. 🤯
Pull the other one it's got bells on it. 🤣

HenriettaSwanLeavitt · Yesterday 21:03

MabelAnderson · Yesterday 20:59

Sensible for women to use the men’s pond now, as it’s full of men who don’t want to be around semi naked women. A lot safer than the women’s pond which now has men who very much want to be around semi naked women.

Apparently the men at the men's pond do not like the trans-identified females watching them while they share their intimate moments.

nicepotoftea · Yesterday 21:03

HenriettaSwanLeavitt · Yesterday 20:56

Yes, I think so and there seems to be some confusion over whether it can be Women + TW or whether it would have to be Women + anyone with PC of GR.
Either way the Ponds are open to the public so not an association.

I'm concerned that they seem to think they can do a poll of 'users' to decide whether to comply with equality law.

Do they think this is also open to facilities run by Reform councils, or is there some kind of 'right side of history' badge that one has to apply for?

Theeyeballsinthesky · Yesterday 21:04

Then they relabel all the ponds as mixed sex

the fact that TW won't feel validated if the women's pond is relabelled mixed sex is something I'm sure CoL will be made aware of by shouty men once they've got past their initial "haha in your face TERFS"

Theeyeballsinthesky · Yesterday 21:05

nicepotoftea · Yesterday 21:03

I'm concerned that they seem to think they can do a poll of 'users' to decide whether to comply with equality law.

Do they think this is also open to facilities run by Reform councils, or is there some kind of 'right side of history' badge that one has to apply for?

Clearly that's how all law should be implemented amirite?

health & safety at work - just poll people to see which bits employers can ignore

WallaceinAnderland · Yesterday 21:05

They also agreed to a series of improvements across all three Bathing Ponds, including upgrades to toilet and shower facilities.

It will be interesting to see whether they intend to provide 'women and transwomen' shower facilities, or whether they intend to separate biological males and females.

I suspect all three ponds will be mixed sex with separate male and female changing and shower facilities.

OP posts:
SomeGarlic · Yesterday 21:06

Extremely long post warning.

The SC judgement is a beautiful work, clarifying - NOT changing - the Equality Act 2010. Below are some extracts to illustrate the logic, especially where it is being repeatedly and obstinately misinterpreted by transgenderists.

134. First, to demonstrate less favourable treatment in subsection (1) an actual or hypothetical comparator is often relied on to demonstrate that a person without the relevant protected characteristic was or would have been treated more favourably by person A. Such a comparator (actual or hypothetical) must be a person who does not share B’s protected characteristic. Section 23(1) makes clear that, apart from the protected characteristic, there must be “no material difference between the circumstances relating to each case” when determining whether B has been treated less favourably. Accordingly, where sex is the protected characteristic, a woman relying on section 13(1) must compare her treatment with the treatment that was or would have been afforded to a man whose Page 40 circumstances are not materially different to hers; in other words, a similarly situated man. Where gender reassignment is the protected characteristic, in the case of a male person proposing to or undergoing gender reassignment to the opposite sex, the correct comparator is likely to be a man without the protected characteristic of gender reassignment and similarly for a woman (although there may be situations where the comparator’s sex is immaterial to the comparison). See for example, Croft v Royal Mail Group plc [2003] EWCA Civ 1045, [2003] ICR 1425 at para 74.

A male person proposing gender reassignment is NOT discriminated against by exclusion from the Ladies' Pond because, like all other men, he may use the Men's and the Mixed Ponds.

142. The EA 2010 is also concerned to prohibit disguised discrimination which operates at a group level. This is important as Michael Foran explains (in an article entitled “Defining Sex in Law” (2025) 141 LQR 76, 91–92:

“Arguments concerning the definition of a protected characteristic are never simply manifestations of individual claims. They are always group orientated. The claim that one is a woman is a claim to be included within a particular category of persons and to be excluded from another. It is also a claim to include some persons and to exclude other persons within the group that one is a part of. This matters especially for aspects of the Equality Act 2010 which require duty-bearers to be cognisant of how their conduct might affect those who share a protected characteristic or where there is an obligation to account for the distinct needs and interests of those who share a particular characteristic.”

In allowing men to use the Ladies' Pond - and/or women to use the Men's Pond - the committee must consider its duties to users having the protected characteristic of sex who, for religious or other reasons, cannot share an unclothed environment with members of the opposite sex.

144. First, the provisions concerning indirect discrimination are specifically directed at the problem of group discrimination and their purpose is to counter group (not individual) disadvantage. They operate where an apparently neutral policy or practice is applied generally to everyone but produces a disproportionate disadvantage for a particular group with a shared protected characteristic. Indirect discrimination is defined by sections 19 and/or 19A of the EA 2010. Section 19(1) and (2) provide that indirect discrimination occurs when a person (A) applies to another (B) a “provision, criterion or practice” (generally referred to as a “PCP”) if:

“(a) A applies, or would apply, it to persons with whom B does not share the characteristic,

"(b) it puts, or would put, persons with whom B shares the characteristic at a particular disadvantage when compared with persons with whom B does not share it,

"(c) it puts, or would put, B at that disadvantage, and Page 44 (d) A cannot show it to be a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.”

If you allow people with the characteristic of gender reassignment into all three ponds, you have privileged them in comparison to people with the characteristic of sex, who may only use two. This is indirect discrimination. It's also direct discrimination in light of 134 above.

168. Section 11 of the EA 2010 provides: “In relation to the protected characteristic of sex—

(a) a reference to a person who has a particular protected characteristic is a reference to a man or to a woman;

(b) a reference to persons who share a protected characteristic is a reference to persons of the same sex.”

169. The only other guidance as to the meaning of these expressions is given in the general interpretation provisions in section 212(1) which provide:

“In this Act … ‘man’ means a male of any age; … ‘woman’ means a female of any age.

170. In other words, what is made unlawful is sex discrimination against women and men; and the provision in section 212(1) ensures that boys and girls are protected against discrimination connected to their sex.

Speaks for itself. The committee seems to have disregarded its duty to ensure it doesn't discriminate against men or women.

173. Moreover, it makes no sense for conduct under the EA 2010 in relation to sex based rights and protections to be regulated on a practical day-to-day basis by reference to categories that can only be ascertained by knowledge of who possesses a (confidential) certificate. Some of the practical consequences of a certificated sex definition are described in the case presented by Sex Matters. They state that uncertainty and ambiguity about the circumstances in which it is legitimate to treat (biological) women and girls as a distinct group whose interests need to be considered and protected, have the effect that many organisations now feel inhibited in doing so.

175. It is significant, however, that there is only one definition of sex. The concept of sex is of foundational importance in the EA 2010. The words sex and woman appear across different parts of the Act and in many sections. It would be surprising if the words sex and woman were intended to have different meanings in different sections or parts of the EA 2010, as the Inner House concluded, especially given the definitions of “man” and “woman” in section 212(1) of the EA 2010. Indeed, it would offend against the principle of legal certainty and the need for a meaning which is constant and predictable, especially in the context of an Act with the purposes we have identified, and which has such practical everyday consequences for so many individuals and organisations in society.

185. There are also provisions in the EA 2010 that allow for differential treatment afforded by service-providers and others to protect the health and safety of women generally and pregnant women in particular. In other words, what would otherwise amount to unlawful discrimination in regulated activities is not unlawful by virtue of these provisions.

The court goes on to show that discrimination is lawful if it favours the protection of women, even if it might be unlawful when applied to a different group.

It then explains why the Scottish government was wrong to introduce the concept of variable definitions of sex. As above, this offends against the principle of legal clarity.

199. Accordingly, the EA 2010 recognises sex and gender reassignment as distinct and separate bases for discrimination and inequality, giving separate protection to each. Those who have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment are referred to as “a transsexual person” (section 7(3)(a)), not as a “trans” woman or man. There is no distinction drawn in section 7 or elsewhere between those for whom the relevant process would involve reassignment male to female or female to male. In other words, it is the attribute of proposing to undergo, undergoing or having undergone a process (or part of Page 60 a process) for the purpose of reassignment, which is the common factor, not the sex into which the person is reassigned.

This is important, and needs repetition because it is being persistently flouted. Discrimination against a 'trans' person is discrimination against them for being 'trans', not discrimination against the sex into which they identify. They cannot suffer sex discrimination against their 'assigned' sex, because they do not meet the criteria specified in 168, 169, 170.

They can, however, claim discrimination against their perceived sex:

251. Take, for example, a trans woman who applies for a job as a sales representative and the sales manager thinks that she is a biological woman because of her appearance and does not offer her the job even though she performed best at interview and gives the job instead to a biological man. She would have a claim for direct discrimination because of her perceived sex and her comparator would be someone who is not perceived to be a woman. The fact that she is not a biological woman should make no difference to her claim, which would be treated in the same way as a direct discrimination claim made by a biological woman based on the sex of the complainant herself.

256. Applied, for example, to the case of a trans woman with a GRC, who presents as a woman at work and is perceived as a woman, and whose trans status and GRC are confidential: if a colleague harasses her (by making sexualised references to what she is wearing, or degrading comments about how she looks) she can bring a claim for harassment related to sex. She can also bring a harassment claim related to the protected characteristic of gender reassignment but may not wish to do so.

This is long section about remedies available to 'trans women' relating to discrimination against their perceived sex. It treats entirely with situations in which the person is clothed, and may be perceived as a female. Hampstead Ponds involve swimming and sunbathing naked, with changing facilities also involving communal nudity. Vanishingly few 'trans women' could be perceived as female without clothes on - and, if they were, it's unlikely they'd be challenged. Ditto for 'trans men' using the Men's Pond.

There's a lot more very sensible commentary before the above, on collisions between acquired gender and biological sex, with special mention for lesbians, who cannot be forced by the law to include opposite-sex 'women' in their same-sex gatherings. Circumstances such as medical provisions and communal changing or sleeping facilities, sports, single-sex charities and data collection are also examined with detailed logic.

The overriding principle when applying the EA2010 is whether an inclusion or exclusion is proportionate and reasonable. It can't be proportionate or reasonable to include people of one protected characteristic (reassignment) in all provisions, where this inclusion forces the exclusion of others of another protected characteristic (religion, age, disability or, indeed sex) on privacy & dignity grounds.

If this post wasn't long enough for you, here's the full text: supremecourt.uk/uploads/uksc_2024_0042_judgment_aea6c48cee.pdf

HenriettaSwanLeavitt · Yesterday 21:06

nicepotoftea · Yesterday 21:03

I'm concerned that they seem to think they can do a poll of 'users' to decide whether to comply with equality law.

Do they think this is also open to facilities run by Reform councils, or is there some kind of 'right side of history' badge that one has to apply for?

Well this is the dangerous territory that we are heading towards. If we lose democracy we lose everything.

RogueFemale · Yesterday 21:08

It'll all be sorted in November when Sex Matters go to the High Court.

SomeGarlic · Yesterday 21:10

RogueFemale · Yesterday 21:08

It'll all be sorted in November when Sex Matters go to the High Court.

Bless them ⭐ I must see if they still need gardening assistance.

HenriettaSwanLeavitt · Yesterday 21:11

RogueFemale · Yesterday 21:08

It'll all be sorted in November when Sex Matters go to the High Court.

Yes, CoL are trying it on. I imagine that some of the men involved are not short of a bob or two and are willing to fund a legal team for a court case.

RogueFemale · Yesterday 21:13

SomeGarlic · Yesterday 21:10

Bless them ⭐ I must see if they still need gardening assistance.

They do.

PencilsInSpace · Yesterday 21:31

We have continued to listen and take detailed legal advice throughout this process.

Who did they take legal advice from? The fox batterer? 😬

Theeyeballsinthesky · Yesterday 21:34

PencilsInSpace · Yesterday 21:31

We have continued to listen and take detailed legal advice throughout this process.

Who did they take legal advice from? The fox batterer? 😬

Or Bundle

Hedgehogforshort · Yesterday 21:44

This case is the best example of how the SC ruling can not be circumnavigated.

They could change the ponds to mixed sex by name, but the gender ideology prohibits that.

So instead the Col fully intend to spaff money up the wall on a Court case they know they are going to lose.

As pointed out on recent cases, by Naomi better to avoid blame and point at the Judiciary.

ManyShapesOfPasta · Yesterday 21:46

MarieDeGournay · Yesterday 20:12

Privacy is one of the legitimate exceptions. A swimming and sunbathing area that is designated Women Only, and actually is used by biological females only, is a space in which women could enjoy greater privacy than a mixed sex area.

If I understand rightly, there has always been a Mixed Pond, so there was always a 3rd space for transpeople, so it transpeople had access to the same facilities as men and women had.

I don't see how transpeople were being discriminated against, if there was a mixed 3rd space it always was trans inclusive.

Edited

All of the ponds are trans inclusive, they are just based in the sex you are, not the one you want to be.

Hedgehogforshort · Yesterday 21:50

ManyShapesOfPasta · Yesterday 21:46

All of the ponds are trans inclusive, they are just based in the sex you are, not the one you want to be.

That does not make any sense

Keeptoiletssafe · Yesterday 21:52

Since they are now having to upgrade the facilities to make them more private, the toilets (if there are any) should conform to Approved Document T (2025). They will be private and sound resistant. Presumably the changing cubicles will be the same, going from open to private.

Last March there was the Sodomites Walk, a stones throw away, for the ‘Pups vs Dog Walkers’ protest. I don’t know who won that battle? Dog walkers were complaining families were seeing people having sex. The Pups argument back was that it’s their cultural thing on the Heath.

Sexual activity in a public toilet is illegal. There are designs which help design-out undesirable behaviour. Having it witnessed is one of them. I predict the new facilities will be more ‘interesting’ for the cleaners.

My advice would be not to make everything private. They are in danger of designing-in crime if they go down this route.

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · Yesterday 21:54

Theeyeballsinthesky · Yesterday 21:34

Or Bundle

Don't!

LlynTegid · Yesterday 21:57

Those who use any of the ponds are almost all people who do not live or vote in the City of London. So you cannot even use the argument that people voted for this policy indirectly.

KnottyAuty · Yesterday 22:34

HouseOfGoldandBones · Yesterday 20:33

Surely, if they're doing the 2 PCs rule, then the men's pond would be males & everyone with the PC of gender reassignment?

I think this seems to be what they are attempting.

It is one of the edits which was added by Bridget Phillipson to the updated EHRC Guidance between September 2025 and May 2026. It is not in the current version - from 2022(?) And may never make it through the 40 days of prayers in the Commons, for the 2026 edition. But whether in or out of the guidance, the courts would look at the law.

From the EA2010:

14 Combined discrimination: dual characteristics

(1) A person (A) discriminates against another (B) if, because of a combination of two relevant protected characteristics, A treats B less favourably than A treats or would treat a person who does not share either of those characteristics.

(2) The relevant protected characteristics are— (a) age; (b) disability; (c) gender reassignment; (d) race (e) religion or belief; (f) sex; (g) sexual orientation.

(3) For the purposes of establishing a contravention of this Act by virtue of subsection (1), B need not show that A’s treatment of B is direct discrimination because of each of the characteristics in the combination (taken separately).

(4) But B cannot establish a contravention of this Act by virtue of subsection (1) if, in reliance on another provision of this Act or any other enactment, A shows that A’s treatment of B is not direct discrimination because of either or both of the characteristics in the combination.

(5) Subsection (1) does not apply to a combination of characteristics that includes disability in circumstances where, if a claim of direct discrimination because of disability were to be brought, it would come within section 116 (special educational needs).

(6) A Minister of the Crown may by order amend this section so as to— (a) make further provision about circumstances in which B can, or in which B cannot, establish a contravention of this Act by virtue of subsection (1); (b) specify other circumstances in which subsection (1) does not apply.

(7) The references to direct discrimination are to a contravention of this Act by virtue of section 13.

This looks to me that the combination of two protected characteristics have to be within one person. Not that each person has a separate characteristic that they don't share.

But it will depend on the labelling of the space. If the space is advertised as "Women plus TW" then they have not used the single-sex exception in the EA2010 and so there is no false advertising.

However, the question will be if there is indirect discrimination because of the removal of the historic single sex women's pond? That will depend on lots of things including the robustness of any previous consultation and what the founding principles of the ponds says and any rules about how to change that.

In practice we are going back to the early 20th century where men will colonise all the spaces and women will be pushed out. Which is why the EA2010 has these exceptions to protect against - it is just that has all been forgotten by too many people.

I still can't get over the idea that everyone knew what a woman was when we didn't count as "persons" under the law - and so we couldn't have anything for ourselves. Then after about 100 years of hard won rights along came the EA2010. And it seemed for a short while that the structural barriers were gone and we would only have to overcome unconcious bias.... But then somehow sex suddenly got complicated and noone knew what a woman was any more - so we couldn't have anything for ourselves - all over again. Funny how it always seems to work in favour of the male sex?

KnottyAuty · Yesterday 22:39

Hedgehogforshort · Yesterday 21:50

That does not make any sense

Trans people can access ponds on the basis of their biological sex - ergo they are trans inclusive because noone will be turned away for being trans. Just like noone should be turned away for being a particular race, or disabled, or age etc etc. But it's just not the sort of inclusion that the trans people seem to be looking for