Sunderland Minster refusing to comply with Supreme Court ruling

[labtest57]

This is from their Facebook page today. No consideration for the women who do not want men in their spaces.

I'm just saying what we have and how much better they are than what they replaced.

It's in England. We've had them for a few years.

Nothing like that. They are brick built with a conventional wooden door. Much bigger than your example, wheelchair users (like my husband) can use them. I suppose that's disability friendly as accessible to all. They also have a pulldown changing table for babies.

Like my post at 10.22 then? This is clad to look beach-like as it’s near the sea.

It’s a fairly common problem to get trapped with automated doors on all sorts of designs eg. train carriage disabled toilets. I could link to lots of examples. There’s some where 2 adults sheepishly get freed after several hours by the fire brigade and you can tell the newspaper editors have fun with those stories!

edit: again not having a go, just saying why it’s often best to keep things simple.

There was one of those self locking, fully contained toilets near a Metro station in Newcastle. One day I had a stomach issue and had to get off the Metro to use it. I didn't get stuck in it, on the contrary the door kept on opening by itself after a couple of minutes. It was actually quite distressing as I was unwell. (Fortunately the lovely Metro staff, on being told of the problem, took me to the staff loos). It has certainly made me feel anxious about going near one again!

Have you ever walked into one of those old blocks at night and felt nervous? I walked into one at night and was confronted with two women injecting drugs. Sorry I don't like those blocks, don't feel they offer privacy or safety. I guess we won't agree but I'm happy to stick with what we have.

For me a toilet block shouldn’t be gloomy. It should be designed to be and feel safe. Well lit. Very public. And in this day and age, cctv could absolutely be pointed at the doorway to the block. From a sexual assault pov there’s a huge risk that a woman can be shoved into a fully enclosed loo and locked in and assaulted.

In was in the US last year and noted a lot of loos. A new fancy development in Brooklyn had fully enclosed loos that were disabled and everyone loos. Which was fine. But not well lit (I felt they’d be inappropriate for anyone partially sighted) and round a side door. Despite very public it wasn’t actually very busy around the building (the old sugar factory on the dockside.)

another block beneath an old 1930s building that was used as a cafe and theatre was the old style block of loos for women with the largest gaps beneath I’d ever seen. That actually felt borderline awkward. Very well lit and clean. But renamed “all genders” ffs. 🤦🏻‍♀️

The loos in the new shopping building that looks like a dinosaur skeleton at ground zero were single sex and excellent. Well lit, very public.

(as I was with an architect at all these I really should know the name of them but don’t remember 🤣)

Skelton shopping mall is Westfield 😁

I did write a long answer to this, with lots of evidence about why this doesn’t work, but I don’t want to seem that I am having a go at you.

I wouldn’t go into toilets that made me feel nervous. Neither would my husband (some away games pub toilets). Many toilets get closed down due to misuse.

Going back to the toilet you saw the women in, how do you think the design you like would have stopped that behaviour? Is it out of sight out of mind?

Is it just that the toilet you like is in a less druggie area?

Fully private toilets have long been used for sex and drugs, as I have said before. It’s documented in lots of places around the world and in uk government reports about toilet provision. The private aspect is always a problem: ‘Disabled people's toilets are big, private and less likely to be occupied than regular-sized ones. As a result they are open to misuse by the general public. Most notoriously, they are sometimes occupied by drug users or people having sex.’ BBC, 2013.

America toilet gaps are extreme! 30cm in some States I believe, and gaps along the sides. Shudder. Ours are a respectable max 15cm, like a kitchen kickboard.

With a gap of a foot, people could surely slide over into the next cubicle? OK if they were single-sex, I suppose.

LOL... They are Americans, babe! No one is getting through a 30cm gap!!

Arf! 😁

If the women injecting were in the sort of toilets in my town my kids wouldn't have seen her which I think is a good thing.

The disabled toilets are interesting. If unisex, self-contained toilets are so dangerous it's odd that we accept they are the appropriate provision for some of the most vulnerable members of society.

I'm not convinced that people using drugs or having sex would stop if there were no disabled toilets and as long as no one is being inconvenienced it doesn't bother me. I don't want to watch.

I've been away for a few days, came home yesterday by train. While waiting for my connection I went to the toilet. As I walked in a man walked out. I did think of how much upset it would cause on here and how it was actually a non event.

I've worked in two places where men and women used the same toilet, it was a non issue.

It's a non-issue, people, we can all go home!

Was it a single occupancy self contained toilet or a free for all toilet with sinks outside and toilets in a row?

the first are the type we have at work and male and female staff use them - I've no problem with them and pretty much no one here has a problem with them

but you know that even though you seem determined to pretend it isn't the case

The one at the station was for women. I don't think there was a mens toilets on that platform so I suppose he was either too lazy to go to another platform or didn't have time.

The first place I worked there was only one toilet inside which was designated as female, the mens was outside and across a yard. When I started work there I was the only woman working there full-time and previously it had been all men. I was politely asked if I'd mind the men continuing to use it. I didn't. It was one toilet with a sink so it would qualify although 40 years ago I don't know if that applied.

The second place there was just one toilet, it was a listed building so couldn't easily be changed. It was just a single toilet with a sink.

Well it might not suit you but for the people who worked in both places it was a non issue. People did a fairly normal amount of moaning about various things but the toilets weren't ever a problem that I'm aware of. In the second place it was mess and unwashed dishes in the kitchen that was the big issue and that did cause issues.

I do hope you realize that this may not be the case for all women (and men as well), so your lovely example of everyone being fine with it is not something that can be applied universally. You also don't know how many women would have complained, but thought, on balance, they'd better not. These are real life dilemmas that women who need single -sex spaces face every day. And most employers are required to provide single-sex toilet (and often changing) facilities for their staff, as long as they have the space and it is feasible to do so.

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Equally you don't know how many people wouldn't find it a problem.

Well, there are surveys that show that the majority of people in the UK prefer single-sex spaces. I'm sure someone has them to hand, but I'll see if I can find it.

The other thing you have to consider is that it only takes one person to complain, and then it's not ok for everyone. It also only takes one man in a female single-sex space to render it mixed-sex and completely unusable for women who require single-sex spaces (for trauma reasons, religious reasons , etc.) and their needs count, too.

Our research confirms what representative surveys also show: that many people value separate facilities for women and men, and expect them to be provided on the basis of sex, not gender identity.

For example, a YouGov poll on 27th January 2022 showed that 87% of people wanted separate toilets for men and women, either on their own or with a gender-neutral option in addition.

Only 7% wanted gender-neutral only. 45% of people say they generally feel uncomfortable using a gender-neutral toilet in a public place.

https://sex-matters.org/posts/single-sex-services/why-single-sex-services-matter-privacy-dignity-safety-and-choice-2/

Well no one asked me.

These aren't communal toilets. There is no man in there when you are, there are no women either. How do people cope when visiting a friend who only has one toilet that their husband/son/father uses.

Can you also explain why unisex completely enclosed toilets are ok for disabled people. Equality surely means that it isn't acceptable to have a dangerous option for the disabled alongside safer toilets for the able bodied?

Ok, well, see what you want to see. The stats are there, even if you want to pretend they are not. And just because no one asked you doesn't mean they didn't ask a lot of other people. And their opinions matter, too, not just yours.

How do people cope when visiting a friend who only has one toilet that their husband/son/father uses.

This is such TRA bingo from 2020, I'm not even going to bother, except to say that we are talking about public toilets and toilets in places of employment. Not some private household's bathroom.

Can you also explain why unisex completely enclosed toilets are ok for disabled people.

Well, you need the expert for this. @Keeptoiletssafe Don't ever tell me I never do anything for you! (I'm so glad you asked)