Do transmen suffer from a form of autogynephilia or do they have 'genuine' gender dysphoria?

[GaIadriel]

Not looking to stir things up although I do appreciate this may be a controversial question.

I've read so much about how transwomen are often motivated by sexual perversions etc, and my kneejerk reaction is that it's certainly feasible. However, when I think about transmen it becomes a little bit more ambiguous.

I'm not sure I buy the argument that it's to 'escape from the pressures of being a female' as is often claimed because male hierarchy seems much more brutal and unforgiving to my eyes and seems to punish the 'weak' to a much greater extent.

When a female presents as male and uses male facilities (as many successfully do due to passing much more easily than most TW) what is their motivation for doing this?

A book can be research. Hannah's book contains meticulous inline citations, expert quotations and a full bibliography. That's why I linked the book. It isn't open access so you would need to acquire your own copy for a full list of citations. Most libraries should have a copy if you don't want to spend any money.

None of those links work but in any case I get the point.

In the UK, evidence shows a significant crossover between youth who identify as trans and those who later identify as lesbian, gay, or bisexual.

That's not what CAS review stated rather it highlighted that a notably high percentage of the young people presenting to gender services identified as homosexual or bisexual. The review noted that for many, their distress was deeply intertwined with their developing sexual orientation which isn't the same as saying their issues with sexual orientation was the cause of being trans.

LGB Alliance, point to data from young people who have desisted or detransitioned. This research suggests that a portion of teens who initially identified as trans ultimately reconcile with being gay or lesbian.

Short term transitory trans identification that's underpinned by sexual orientation issues hardly qualifies these individuals as being trans as I mentioned upthread. The context here is trans men not pretend ones.

As I understand it, the problem can arise when a young person has a same sex orientation but they feel that is unacceptable and it goes underground, so to speak.

The majority of Transmen were young at transition. Unlike the majority of trans identified males The Cass review highlights this and shows they were pushed along the trans pathway when in a large number these young girls were gay. You say pretend trans but isn't that the case of the majority of transmen. The reason we campaign against including gender questioning in the ban on conversion therapy.

Apologies for the links, I didn't check them.

It's not so much that the links 'didn't work', mrshoho, the NHS and LBGA ones did actually link to the relevant websites, but came up 'page not found' which suggests that those particular pages have been removed for one reason or another, e.g. updating in view of recent developments?

"In a study published in the Journal of Homosexuality, researchers created an autogynephilia scale for cisgender women. They found that under common definitions, the vast majority of women (over 90%) experience erotic arousal to the thought of themselves as a woman, as it is a natural part of feeling desirable, attractive, or feminine."

That immediately made me think of the song 'I enjoy being a girl'

I'm a girl and by me that's only great
I am proud that my silhouette is curvy
That I walk with a sweet and girlish gait
With my hips kind of swivelly and swervey:
I enjoy being a girl
...
I flip when a fellow sends me flowers
I drool over dresses made of lace
I talk on the telephone for hours
With a pound and a half of cream upon my face
..
I'm strictly a female female
And my future I hope will be
In the home of a brave and free male
Who'll enjoy being a guy, having a girl like me

Is that cisgender autogynephilia? 😁

[The words were written by a man, BTW]

Please read fewer transphobic articles and start listening to trans voices instead.

I do think it's important to listen to trans voices. MaryCate Delvey is a good starting point.

There's no causality for being a trans man proven in the CAS report. Correlation is not causation.

What is the difference between a “true” transman and a “pretend” one?

Why are you misspelling Cass @Aisha176 ?

But correlation does not exclude causation; further evidence is necessary.

I was going to ask the same. And isn't claiming that someone isn't really trans when they say they are transphobic?

You could say the same for gay people…….

If an anorexic says they are fat and you say they aren’t, you are not hating them.

I don't think that fantasy is about the violence, or power specifically though. It's about safety.

I've been sucker punched in the face twice in my life. Once when in University, and again a couple of years ago. In both cases it was just the one punch, and I broke my nose. In every other way the two experiences were very different for me though

The first time I was in no real position to defend myself, and it really shit me up for months afterward. I'd go over it again and again in the middle of the night. Despite the fact that I'd managed to get my attacker to run off (I'd somehow come back up off the floor with a half brick in my hand and lobbed it at him before my brain had even registered what was going on) I still spent nights replaying it, wondering what I could have done differently, fantasising about beating him up, getting him arrested. Even killing him sometimes. It wasn't about revenge though, or wanting to feel powerful. It was about not wanting to feel scared, of not wanting to get hurt again.

The second time it happened I was never in any danger. I'd gone from being a skinny beanpole to a bit of a unit. (Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fit man, think Greg Davies for reference. I'd be useless in a proper fight but I could probably overpower and then sit on most people these days.) Plus the guy who'd hit me was probably about 70. Yes he hurt me, but I wasn't in any real danger, and it didn't scare me. I was a little shook up for a couple of days and my nose was sore for a while, but I didn't relive it over and over again. There were no fantasies of beating him up.

You're right that even the most non-violent men wanting to be able to handle themselves, but it's not a "I want to be able to beat someone up" thing, it's a "I want to be sure that I won't get beaten up" I don't see walking away as the less desired option, or a "loss of dignity". Its the preferred outcome for me.

For what it's worth. I'd much rather be a bloke than a woman. Yes, there's a chance of random violence from strangers for no good reason. But I'd much rather that than have to deal with the shit women have to put up with on a daily basis. I can walk down a dark street at night. I can go round a potential partners house and not have to worry if I'll ever leave again. I don't have to worry about the dichotomy of the sex I'm attracted to also being the people most likely to do violence to me.

Violence isn't something I have to think about day to day. In fact, I can go weeks without it crossing my mind (ignoring all the beating people and shooting people going on on in TV show / films etc). Yes, every so often it intrudes into my life out of nowhere, but I don't have to worry about it day to day, not the way women do.

The paper (I think i found the right one) was also written by a man.

They approached women at a hospital. Around 57 agreed to take part but only 29 returned the questionnaire.

I have not looked more closely at the questions but it's not even the number to reach a proper statisical analysis. A poor paper of doubtful value.

Men must try harder.

Also it is about females
feeling attractive as females, not females feeling attractive while imagining themselves as being the opposite sex (males). So it is not the equivalent.

If a man dresses as a woman because of AGP, are they spending all day at work, going to supermarket etc in a permanent state of arousal?Does this not interfere with every day life?

What Blanchard was never able to explain was that if being trans is a sexual fetish why the urge to transition does not diminish when these individuals take oestrogen/anti-androgen medications which famously supress libido.

I'd like to say men get used to it; but that might be seen as facetious.

A certain amount of 'chasing the dragon' is visible, particularly in the accounts of men with trans identities (Miranda Yardley mentions this with conscious awareness), in the behaviours of well known men, and particularly in the accounts of trans widows. Sex addiction and more general addiction behaviours in men seem to have definite links.

I literally just said trans people are individuals and their stories - not conspiracy theories treating them as a hive mind - should be listened to.

Then you gave me conspiracy theories, and defended using them. It's no different from theorising why homosexuality exists - all such speculation is dehumanising and disrespectful.

Autism is common, and using it as the basis for conspiracy theories about Why Trans Exist is ableism. There's a lot of evidence from autistic trans people's own testimony that they are simply unable to mask as well as cis, so come out more often.

If you want to prevent trans boys binding, then do what I did: accept that they are trans no matter how they dress. Seriously. Most trans boys stop binding at home and do it less elsewhere if they are accepted as trans, and their preferred names and pronouns used.

Transphobia and fear of assault are the main reasons why trans people confirm to gender stereotypes in public. In private they often don't.

Of course all trans people have different explanations for who they are. That's as normal as cis women disagreeing on what being female means to us. Some are gnc & choose to express that, many aren't.

Categorising minorities and speculating about why they exist is deeply abnormal behaviour. Acceptance of difference and listening to other people's stories of their life experience, by contrast, broadens the mind considerably.

Have you ever tried listening to women at all?

It's all so fucking sad. It absolutely breaks my heart that all these children feel this way and see gender identity as the solution.

@GermaineBloodyGreer · Today 06:09
How well you explained everything, thank you.