Do transmen suffer from a form of autogynephilia or do they have 'genuine' gender dysphoria?

[GaIadriel]

Not looking to stir things up although I do appreciate this may be a controversial question.

I've read so much about how transwomen are often motivated by sexual perversions etc, and my kneejerk reaction is that it's certainly feasible. However, when I think about transmen it becomes a little bit more ambiguous.

I'm not sure I buy the argument that it's to 'escape from the pressures of being a female' as is often claimed because male hierarchy seems much more brutal and unforgiving to my eyes and seems to punish the 'weak' to a much greater extent.

When a female presents as male and uses male facilities (as many successfully do due to passing much more easily than most TW) what is their motivation for doing this?

From anecdotal evidence from having encountered trans men in a secondary care service (as a psychologist), they were lesbians who had backgrounds of sexual abuse. One client explicitly said ”I had to become a man to protect _” (previous girl’s name).

Autogynephilia is such a weaponised term:

"In a study published in the Journal of Homosexuality, researchers created an autogynephilia scale for cisgender women. They found that under common definitions, the vast majority of women (over 90%) experience erotic arousal to the thought of themselves as a woman, as it is a natural part of feeling desirable, attractive, or feminine.

Historically, the term was coined to describe a sexual typology specific to transgender women. However, many modern psychologists and advocacy groups criticize the concept itself, arguing that human sexuality is fluid and that applying clinical labels to normal female sexual fantasy is reductive and can unnecessarily stigmatize both cisgender and transgender women. 1, 2, , 5, 6, 7]"

That's interesting. Was it mainly abuse from men or woman? There seems to be a common assertion that lesbian relationships are the most violent, followed by hetero, followed by gay men. I've heard it stated many a time (often as a gotcha) but I've never actually googled it and had a read as I often do with 'facts' I read online.

Not watched the vid yet as I'm already late to bed. But Dr Z looks like a pretty fruity character. 😂

Hoo ok I name changed for this. I'm gender critical and part of that is because I understand how I could have gone down the trans path.

I've never wanted to be a man and I'm not even particularly masc but I do get turned on by the fantasy of having sex - with a woman - "as a man". As in I would like to have a penis. Is that AAP? It seems different to how it was described in the video posted by a PP which describes it more as wanting to be a man. But it does still seem a bit fetishistic.

Or possibly just because society tells us that if you have sex with a woman you need to be the dominant, 'giver'? Which might go some way to explaining why all the butch lesbians right now are identifying as trans men, taking testosterone and getting their breasts removed.

Regardless, I think that AAP women - however you define them - are different to AGP men because women just aren't trying to insert themselves in male spaces waving their male breasts around and telling men to get over themselves.

I also agree with PPs that women write gay men to appeal to how heterosexual women want men to behave in relationships. It's one of those things that once you see you can't unsee. Another example is how Alice Osman (a "queer" woman) writes Nick and Charlie in Heartstopper versus how Russell T Davies (a gay man) writes his gay men in Queer as Folk and Cucumber.

Testosterone that they are taking causes more aggression and sexual urges so the porn use might come from that.

If you go read at the detrans reddit, you will see some people there talk about this issue.

It does seem to be a thing for some, and like the male version in many cases porn seems to be the origin. These are often girls who have been watching a lot of gay porn, reading or creating similar pornographic fan-fiction, and maybe started by reading things like "Heartstopper" where they developed this very fetishistic approach to what they think is gay male sexuality.

I also get the sense from some posts there that taking testosterone and the sexual effects of that becomes quite important to some, and there can be some significant fetishistic or risky sexual behaviour that comes out of it too.

A couple of the young women I know who adopted trans identities had abusive mothers, who were involved with abusive men. The men didn't directly abuse the kids, in one case the mother dragged them from one horrible man to another, until she had them living with one in a shack and they were removed. IN the other the mother was in a terrible relationship but also abused the kids, mentally and verbally, herself.

I think it adds to it but porn use among young women is extremely high now. It doesn't get captured in the stats because it's not traditional male porn, it's fanfic and romantasy type stuff, but the ultimate end is the same.

It's not necessary to watch the vid unless you are interested in a full summary of Blanchard's theory of autogynephilia & the most common critiques of it.

What's relevant to your question that can be just googled is a study showing autogynephilia being a normal sexual orientation for women so to suggest auto gynephilia is only a perversion, paraphilia or cause of gender dysphoria doesn't take into account the normality of people being aroused by their own bodies. Nor does it make sense that trans women still seek out sexual pair bonding if their sexual orientation is limited to autogynephila.

Trans men are just trans. You're quite correct, they don't transition because it saves them from being female - it actually makes them far more vulnerable. This is especially the case for trans boys (my son is trans) who endure horrific sexual violence and physical threats at school.

Trans women are just trans as well. I recommend you read some of the many articles written by trans women who have transitioned in later life (such as the Guardian sports writer a few years ago) as they explain this better than I ever could.

Minorities have always been cast as predators, and promiscuous, in order to justify the abuse directed at them. But people are individuals, not characters in p*rn. They have jobs, children, caring commitments and very busy lives, just like everyone else.

Being trans makes a person a target - of misogyny as well as transphobia - and many people think it's fine to attack them. Their existence is considered provocation, an d basic respect denied them.

I know a few trans women in their early 20s, and all of them have been asked to leave the family home because their parents couldn't accept them. It's a frequently lonely life to be trans, and trans people are highly likely to suffer homelessness, unemployment, PTSD and depression due to these pressures. Yet they remain trans, because living as yourself means everything.

Please read fewer transphobic articles and start listening to trans voices instead. Racist, misogynistic and homophobic people try to insist those they hate are driven by sex alone, predatory and inherently evil - and it's the same with transphobes. it's always a lie.

Trans people are individuals just like anyone else, and they exist simply because they do.

Having theories as to why amy minority exists, is bigotry, full.stop. They are people with a certain characteristic, not objects of study in some weird ethnographic game.

A lot of the younger cohort are huge Yaoi fans and have very romanticised views of gay men based on this. When straight men seem sexist and make them uncomfortable by sexualising them, the gay men depicted in Yaoi seem “safe”. So they want to be gay men to escape that. I definitely think this is a huge factor in the younger TIF transitions.

It’s a difficult subject to discuss because of the emotional charge around trans people’s lives being used as a cultural volleyball so I will give a go.

It seems there are 3 groups of trans people.

People with gender dysphoria who are overwhelmingly same-sex attracted and at the more extreme end of the gender non-conforming spectrum. These are the people who benefit from transitioning especially if conducted in late 20’s. A majority of these are male, but can be some females. These people know they are the sex that they are but it is intolerable to live that way.

There is the a group of mainly males who were traumatised by an overbearing or emotionally absent female caregiver. The way they process this is to dress up as that caregiver and sometimes that trauma is sexualised into a fetish. These people do not benefit long-term from transitioning and in general desist after a few years of living openly as a women. A majority of these men are completely fine with being male in a way that people with gender dysphoria are not, and are much more likely to be dominant towards women and enjoy invasive into their spaces. AGP is a subset with a very self-obsessed sexual fixation of this group and I would assume AAP are as well.

Over the last 7 years a new group has emerged. These are adolescent/ young adult who previously had not exhibited any issues. Some of these are same sex attracted teens but most of them are sensitive females who would have ended up being anorexic, or severely mentally ill males who would have been in the mental health system with DiD. There is a huge over representation of ASD and obsessive behaviours in this group. These are the people most at risk because they are being put on a pathway to transition when their identity is in flux. They are being supported in their fantasy by adults and are being isolated by LGBT+ groups who are controlling them by saying anyone who questions that fantasy wants them dead. I think this is the first internet cult and will be incredibly damaging to them.

Respectfully, TransParentlyAnnoyed, there is no one-size-fits-all explanation (“trans men are just trans. they are this way because they are this way”) to the question. There are various reasons why someone may adopt a trans identity, reasons that contradict or conflict from one trans-identified person to the next. It is not bigotry to question motivations, patterns, and whatever possible psychological mechanisms are in play here. Sanctimoniously nailing the door shut is incurious and lazy.

I don’t believe anyone sensible is claiming that every single female who transitions does so for one universally identical reason. Human beings are terribly complicated, as you well know. Some may be responding to dysphoria that began very early. Some may be trying to escape sexualisation, trauma, homophobia, constrictions imposed on women - as others here have been anecdotally sharing. Some trans-identified females may be autistic and struggling with embodiment or social role. Some may be influenced by peer groups... online subcultures, pornography, internalised misogyny, the social cachet of adopting a trendy identity in certain circles. Some may simply be mistaken about what transition can solve. The point is that all these possibilities are precisely what is (and should always be) discussed.

It’s rather odd to to say, on the one hand, that trans-identified people suffer from PTSD, depression, homelessness, alienation, and abuse because of social pressure whilst on the other hand treating it as bigotry to ask whtehr trauma, alienation, abuse, depression, or social pressure might also play a role in the development of a trans identity in some people. It’s also not very persuasive to suggest that because transition can make someone’s life harder, it therefore cannot be motivated by anything other than some innate, unquestionable essence. People make costly choices ALL THE TIME for complex reasons. Costliness does not prove truth - it proves only that the person is strongly motivated.

Compassion and curiosity are not enemies. In fact, I would argue that real compassion requires curiosity. If a young woman or girl is binding, dissociating from her body, rejecting her sex, pursuing irreversible medicalisation et cetera, then adults owe her and every other girl that comes after her more than a virtuous slogan. ‘Listen to trans voices instead’ is not enough if the only voices deemed acceptable are those that affirm the approved conclusion. Because whether you like it or not, detransitioners are voices too. So are women who once believed transition would save them and later concluded that it did not. So are women who can now see that their dysphoria was bound up with trauma, misogyny, homophobia, autism, or sexual shame.

Not even trans-identified people can universally agree upon what makes one trans. There are trans-medicalists who believe gender dysphoria and subsequent full medicalisation (cross-sex hormones, surgery) is a requirement to being trans... whilst there are also genderists who believe you don’t need gender dysphoria to be trans, and that self-ID is valid, paramount and beyond scrutiny.

People are individuals, yes. Which is precisely why ‘they exist simply because they do’ is inadequate and unhelpful. Individuals have histories. They have bodies. They have incentives, wounds, fantasies, fears, loyalties, compulsions, social environments... Pretending otherwise does not protect them.

I agree there is a strong no fantasy element to this.. when I was a teenager I loved Queer as Folk and longed to have that type of sexual without it having to manage periods, pregnancy risk or being assaulted. The guys in the show were just able to go about their sex lives without all extra stuff women have to deal with and that was attractive to 15 year old me.

You've hit the nail on the head. I completely agree with what you’re saying. I was sexually abused as a child for many years, was a voracious producer and consumer of slash fic and lived/worked online as a “man” for 15 years. I came across many women and girls who were steeped in this mindset. The trans thing didn’t become popular until I had grown out of these feelings and left the slash community. I don’t think I would ever have gone down the nb/slash route because the fact that I’m a woman is so deeply ingrained in me.

It’s rather odd to to say, on the one hand, that trans-identified people suffer from PTSD, depression, homelessness, alienation, and abuse because of social pressure whilst on the other hand treating it as bigotry to ask whtehr trauma, alienation, abuse, depression, or social pressure might also play a role in the development of a trans identity in some people.

The problem with this view is equating transitory 'trans' people (who aren't really trans) with long terms ones. Typically, longer term trans people have a genuine psychological identification/association with the gender of the opposite sex & don't sight escapism from abuse or social pressure rather than become trans as a reaction to it. Would you say the same about butch lesbian expressing male behavioural characteristics? What you would say is the genuine one's aren't the 'experimental' or escapist ones so its ridiculous to group them on equal terms & diminish the meaning of the term in doing so.

Detransitioners detransition for the very reason of mistaken identity via escapism but they are very few in numbers & so aren't reflective of the majority.

The reason why this false equivalence is bigotry is that implies trans people don't a have genuine organic influences like genetic & hormonal dispositions that drive personality inclinations & instead have 'deluded' themselves because of environmental pressures. It's a kind of pathologising of biological diversity.

From Hannah Barnes' book it was obvious that children who identify as trans (both boys and girls) will overwhelmingly become gay or lesbian adults if they stop identifying as trans and/or they have experienced one or more adverse childhood experiences (including sexual abuse).

Perhaps the AAP women are the ones who go on to "fully transition" i.e. have a phalloplasty. As that seems pretty rare in women but would track with wanting to "become a man".

Could you quote the research that proves this?

This. Also often neuro diversity making them feel like their body is “wrong”

It's in Hannah Barnes' book Time to Think https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_to_Think_(book)

A book isn't research. Can you link the research she bases her claims on?

I'd think it's probably mentioned quite a lot in the book.

The Tavistock's comments on record about there soon being no gay children left also probably relevant.

It's all there in the Cass Review.

In the UK, evidence shows a significant crossover between youth who identify as trans and those who later identify as lesbian, gay, or bisexual. Major investigations, including the <a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&rct=j&url=www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-implementing-the-cass-review-recommendations/&ved=2ahUKEwj3qb_m-NiUAxXOQkEAHVscHKYQy_kOegoIAggACAAIBRAB&opi=89978449&cd&psig=AOvVaw32nydT0fSO-yvzrl5rYaL2&ust=1779953274664000" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Cass Review and data from former youth gender clinics, found that a high proportion of children referred for gender distress were same-sex attracted. 1, ]
Key pieces of evidence include:
The Cass Review: The landmark independent review of NHS youth gender services highlighted that a notably high percentage of the young people presenting to gender services identified as homosexual or bisexual. The review noted that for many, their distress was deeply intertwined with their developing sexual orientation.
Historical Clinic Data: Before their restructuring, UK gender services (such as the Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust's GIDS) noted that a majority of the adolescent patients assessed were identifying as lesbian, gay, or bisexual, raising concerns that some young people were confusing same-sex attraction with gender identity.
Detransitioner and LGB Advocacy Studies: UK-based research and advocacy groups, including <a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&rct=j&url=lgballiance.org.uk/lgb-alliance-response-to-the-final-report-from-the-cass-review/&ved=2ahUKEwj3qb_m-NiUAxXOQkEAHVscHKYQy_kOegoIAggACAAIChAE&opi=89978449&cd&psig=AOvVaw32nydT0fSO-yvzrl5rYaL2&ust=1779953274664000" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">LGB Alliance, point to data from young people who have desisted or detransitioned. This research suggests that a portion of teens who initially identified as trans ultimately reconcile with being gay or lesbian.
Broader UK Survey Data: Reports from organizations working with LGBT youth, such as the <a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&rct=j&url=lgbtyouth.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Trans-Report-2024-digital-final-V2.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj3qb_m-NiUAxXOQkEAHVscHKYQy_kOegoIAggACAAIChAG&opi=89978449&cd&psig=AOvVaw32nydT0fSO-yvzrl5rYaL2&ust=1779953274664000" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">LGBT Youth Scotland Life in Scotland Research, repeatedly highlight that gender-nonconforming youth frequently navigate overlapping identities, with high rates of same-sex attraction reported within the trans-identifying youth population. 1, 2, 3, ]
The <a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&rct=j&url=www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/&ved=2ahUKEwj3qb_m-NiUAxXOQkEAHVscHKYQy_kOegoIAggACAAIDRAC&opi=89978449&cd&psig=AOvVaw32nydT0fSO-yvzrl5rYaL2&ust=1779953274664000" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">NHS acknowledges that gender identity and sexual orientation are separate, but clinical evidence from the UK indicates that they are highly interconnected during adolescent identity development. 1, 2]

Taken from Google search.