Hamas sexual violence on 7th October attack. Content warning.

[ArabellaScott]

A new investigation has shared more information on details of Hamas' atrocities.

I do urge caution when reading, and don't if you are feeling fragile.

'An independent, Israeli investigation has published harrowing details of "systematic, widespread" sexual violence by Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups during the attacks on 7 October 2023, and against hostages.
The 300-page report concludes that rapes, sexual assault and sexual torture were intended "to maximize pain and suffering".
While the UN and others have published reports on sexual violence during the attacks – in which about 1,200 people were killed and 251 taken hostage – this is the most comprehensive.
It draws on 430 filmed interviews with survivors and witnesses, more than 10,000 photographs and videos filmed by attackers, and official records and material from attack sites.'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgz9k7pzggo

I'm sorry to say, that Sudan doesn't get the same attention because Israel isn't involved. I know I keep saying it, but a lot of the support for Gaza is antisemitism in action.

What has happened to ordinary Palestinian people (mostly women and children) is also horrific. Slaughtered for a religious war waged by men.

@4thedex How have we evolved so fucking badly. Sadly, the technology has evolved, but not the men.

@MarieDeGournay What is unusual, I think, is to have so many people expressing support for armed groups who are known to have committed act of sexual torture and rape as part of their strategy and tactics.

For many people, Gaza against Israel has become a David vs Goliath story being played out. Of course most people support David and cheer to see the downfall of Goliath.

Except this is a much more complicated and complex story and modern palenstine terrorists / Arab organisations exist to see the state of Israel eradicated. That bit is hardly ever discussed. If it is, the implication is the Israel brought this on itself (the response I was given when I tried to discuss the conflict with a work colleague).

Decades ago, Israel was David and Israelis had global support (Munich in 1972, Entebbe 1976 etc) when the PLO and the likes of Yasser Arafat vowed to destroy Israel. But Israel is now too advanced, too wealthy, too technologically equipped and so has been transformed into Goliath by the external world.

Of course, conservative Israeli politicians and aggressive settlers and state sanctioned attacks have contributed to its emergence as the ‘bad side’ but I really think that the one sided reporting on Gaza since 7th Oct just adds fuel to the fire of conflict in the uk between British Muslims and British Jews.

The Beeb loves an underdog. Perhaps that’s part of the British psyche to cheer on an underdog? In this case, the underdog is an XL Bully allowing its own family to be savaged. Hamas could have returned those hostages at any time, but chose not to, provoking further attacks. I fear this conflict will never end.

I’m probably trying to answer rhetorical question here but I’m a bit daft and like talking with women about these things if you don’t mind.
So my thinking is that Isreal/palestine is an extremely complex thing to wrap your head around, I’m 40 and have spent the last 25 years trying, but what I suspect is that people can’t be impartial to either side when they have preconceived notions about Jewish or Muslim people. We see both Islamophobia and antisemitism on all threads discussing Gaza. I think it’s fine to be critical of the Israeli government, it’s fine to be critical of anything you feel critical of, it’s not fine to say you want Jews to be homeless as part of that criticism. It’s not fine to try and denounce the suffering of Jews or any other persecuted group, because others have also suffered. That to me is the antisemitic element, not critical conversion but the lack of letting these Jewish victims be seen. I believe that it’s absolutely fine to call Hamas monsters, I don’t think it’s fine to say because I think that, that the civilians who have suffered in the wake of the attack were justified. Because the acts we’ve seen and read about will never ever be justified. If I broke into your house and killed your family, it isn’t justified that you torture my children as revenge. And I think people think what they’ve seen is revenge for the attacks and that’s what’s giving this the X factor as you put it. I think when we’ve seen the images out of Gaza and the statistics of injured and dead children, people can’t help but behave like it’s overreaction to the attacks, it’s almost like people are thinking it’s simplistic bullying and people don’t like bullies. They think they’re championing the underdog, it’s what people do in my experience.
I don’t think it’s revenge personally, my belief is it’s a boiling pot of pressure exploding and as we’ve established, when men lose their tempers, it’s women who pay. I think both sides should absolutely be criticised and condemned. If you boys want to fight then leave the women and children the hell alone. I feel that way as a blanket rule across the globe, men should go fight each other if they’re so inclined, but they bloody won’t will they? They drag everyone else into their fucking mess. When I see people say they’re not antisemitic and then give reasons it’s because they don’t hate Jewish people, they may love Jewish people they know or even enjoy Jewish culture/food. (Sorry to merail but I think this is adorable and I miss her so much but my grandma used to make bagels, she told me that one of the greatest sadness she had for her strict Jewish family is they’d never know how great bacon bagels were. However her mother was very strict and wouldn’t eat chicken and egg together or beef and cheese and when I was very young we went to a American style diner and she had her very first cheeseburger and all the way through eating it felt guilt her mother would never have known the joy!) but anyway, antisemitism is just so ingrained. It’s similar to misogyny, we’re almost so used to it in our culture we hear things that are constantly misogynistic and harmful towards women but we don’t always realise it because it’s just a part of our lives. And this won’t ever change unless we continue to call this out. And then when it does get called out, people can’t understand why they’re being called out and feel attacked because they in their heads don’t see it as problematic. You also have a huge problem if we don’t allow ourselves to be critical of governments, because then when it becomes Islamophobia or antisemitism it becomes more and more watered down and people then think they have free license to say whatever the fuck they like. I also find the uprising of antisemitism going hand in hand with the uprising of misogyny a very unsettling situation. And of course then we just have grifters out here causing hate and division and not giving a single fuck about another man, woman or child as long as they earn money and stay relevant. As long as those people are listened to, things remain terrible for Jewish communities.

Once again my apologies if I’ve just missed the point and your question was rhetorical, I just enjoy discussion with other women.

@DrBlackbird you have just made the points I wanted to much better and well articulated than I ever could! Thank you

Fucking speechless.
Remind me WHY Israel went to war this time...

Oh, yes.
The murder, mass rape and abduction of Israelis and others living within Israel's borders.

I don’t think it’s fine to say because I think that, that the civilians who have suffered in the wake of the attack were justified.

My god of course no one is or would say the death of tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians is justified! But what did Hamas expect would happen from their explicitly barbaric and sexual torture attack… they knew that Netanyahu’s govt would respond with fury.

To begin with, the IDF told Palestinians to leave areas about to be bombed, But Hamas knew that by embedding their fighters underneath hospitals that they were inviting the destruction of badly needed hospitals in Gaza. And further deaths of their people. In many ways, it’s worked in that for the first time, many western govts are ‘recognising’ Gaza as a state. Who will run it? Hamas operatives of course just as they have been running Gaza before.

I do not see criticisms of Hamas as Islamophobia and conflating or equating it with antisemitism in the context of Gaza or what’s happening in the UK is wrong IMO.

Also never any mention made of Iraq, or Lebanon, or other states that are deeply involved with Hamas.

It's presented as 'Israel v Gaza', whereas the reality is far more complicated.

I don’t think it’s that hard to say what happened to so many on the 7th October was horrific and I don’t know how people can dismiss it so easily. The point about rape is it’s never actually necessary, men who do it, do it because they enjoy it. Fucking degenerates.

Also for anyone who thinks they align with what “most” people think, most people don’t like men who drives nails into womens vaginas, they can rightly identify then as violent perverts.

If you consider yourself pro Palestinian and make excuses for this, remember that these animals went back to Palestinian women, I don’t for one second believe their depravity only happens when they are in Israel.

Also Hamas is currently threatening to shoot any Gazan contractors who cross the yellow line to go work on rebuilding housing. I actually don’t expect many pro hamas people to be reading this thread, they are very good at turning a blind eye to crimes against women and children, including the Gazan women who have made complaints about sexual coercion and the children who said they have been sexually assaulted.

Solidarity to all the victims of male violence, every single one, I don’t care what religion or nation you belong to.

I’m sorry I don’t know how to only quote parts of your post. The last bit where you say you don’t see criticism of Hamas as Islamophobia, I was trying to say I don’t either. But I don’t think Netanyahu facing criticism for his response to the attacks are antisemitic, so I’m unsure if we agree on that?
I think one of the problems I see is when people can’t let lie the whatabouttery, which to me is where antisemitism comes into play. You can find what’s happened after the attacks deplorable but still care about the women attacked without trying to ignore their traumas by immediately saying “but what about”, its the old saying two things can be wrong at once. But you don’t get to diminish the horrific attacks on Jewish women because you feel others have had worse outcomes. I don’t if I’m honest think it’s anyone’s job here to play jury on who has it worse, I think we all have to accept that there is no winner and really only losers. There is so much hurt, so much suffering and damage. Something has to drastically improve now, this can’t continue but what is the answer now? Let’s all say sorry and try to be friends? It’s a clusterfuck with no clear end in sight. We all wish for peace for our planet but it seems like one of the most in achievable things we could wish for.

you seem like a smart cookie, what do you think would benefit the women of Isreal/Gaza? If you could snap your fingers and have an outcome, what would it be?

Hamas is currently threatening to shoot any Gazan contractors who cross the yellow line to go work on rebuilding housing.

Really shows how much they care about Gazans, doesn’t it?

On the post of @4thedex it says we see both islamaphobia and antisemitism on threads about Gaza.

In my opinion people who are antisemetic (generally) seem to hate Israel and want to destroy it and if that means destroying Jews and their homeland then so be it.
Islamaphobia is based on fear. We are frightened of the raping gangs who rape white girls in the uk - and equally the men in Gaza who think it’s fine to rape and murder Jewish girls and women purely because they are Jews.
We are frightened of the growing numbers of Muslims in power as we don’t want to end up like women in Pakistan and Afghanistan, Saudi and other Middle Eastern countries where women have no rights . It’s now illegal for girls and women to have any form of education in Afghanistan.

Can you see the difference?
Antisemetism is something displayed by people who want the destruction of the only Jewish county in the world.
Islamaphobia is where we are not scared of the idology, we don’t disagree with their ‘god’ - who wants to worship a man who married a 9 year old girl- but we are scared of the men who follow this religion.
The two things ( antisemetism and islamaphobia) are as different as chalk and cheese. 🧀

That’s explained it to me really well and I can’t thank you for taking the time to do that. I appreciate that and it makes sense when you say that. I suppose it’s hard to not struggle to confuse as similar when people say things that can be very cruel about either race, but by lumping them together I become part of the problem. They are very different. I know a lot more Muslim people than I do Jewish people despite my Jewish family, I don’t know many other Jewish people. The Muslims I’ve known have always been very lovely and respectful members of society who I’d be delighted to have as a part of my community so when I’ve seen or read derogatory things about Muslims I’ve been defensive and equated it to hate in the way I have when reading antisemitism. But they’re both completely different and I will no longer liken them.

I don’t think that’s a fair reading of Islamophobia in the Uk. It isn’t just about the small number of Pakistani British Muslims who systematically raped white and British Asian girls. There were and are plenty of white/Eastern European gangs who have and do that too. And if you think the white men who shout outside hotels about protecting women really care, you’re mistaken.

It’s about things like kids being assumed to be terrorist sympathisers because of their faith and culture, about a woman being raped and beaten in her own home because a stupid white man thought she was Muslim, about women being afraid to leave their homes because they wear hijab and about rising anti-immigration sentiment because of where people come from. I don’t Islamophobia is any more acceptable or justified than anti-Semitism. It’s always about power, and the struggle to either retain it or take it off others. The IDF soldiers who shot babies, no different than the rape gangs, neither of these things are about their respective religions, they’re about power, hatred and the most toxic aspects of masculinity. We don’t need to delineate them. But anti-Semitism and Islamophobia are used to hurt women every day.

Finally, Muslims don’t worship Muhammad, they worship Allah. We can find in all religious texts things that do not align with the world now, and we can find those whose practice has moved beyond it, as well as those who slavishly follow the old text where it suits them.

But I don’t think Netanyahu facing criticism for his response to the attacks are antisemitic, so I’m unsure if we agree on that?

I agree that criticising Netanyahu is not antisemitism.

@Bringemout If you consider yourself pro Palestinian and make excuses for this, remember that these animals went back to Palestinian women, I don’t for one second believe their depravity only happens when they are in Israel.

Totally agree.

This is very true.

One of my adult DC, who I thought I had brought up to be a critical thinker, was utterly baffled about why Israel was bombing Iran...

You might not think it’s a fair summation.
But I do.
Your reply reeks of ‘whataboutery’.

And it takes a lot more than a ‘small number’ to rape an estimated 250,000 women &girls.

Hi @earlyr1ser We have a Substack - you will find all of our Newsletters, podcasts, blogs, and links to Events on there. Past webinars are available plus details of up and coming ones (One with Melanie Phillips is coming up soon).
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Thanks for the interest
feministsagainstantisemitism.substack.com

Thank you so much for posting on this thread.
I’m going to have a look tomorrow.
Im desperate to show my support to British Jews as I’m so appalled by the antisemitism in the UK right now.
We didn’t ask Jews to come here , telling them they would be safe, then to ignore them while they get attacked and abused by the dregs of society.

There’s no whataboutery in my post, you were the one who compared two forms of racism and I responded. This is a thread predominantly about harm to Jewish women and girls, but you’ve chosen to bring something else into it. I’m not going to be silent when you use one form of racism as a shield to propagate another.

You do realise that ‘Muslim’ is an idology not a race don’t you?
It’s a religion. We do not have blasphemy laws in the UK.
Jews are a race. It’s not just their religion, it’s their total identity and where they come from - since there’s only one Jewish homeland.
The Jews who were murdered on October 7th were murdered purely because they were Jewish - men broke into their country , raped murdered & kidnapped them.
These men defiled the women in ways I don’t even want to try & imagine.
And -If Mulims don’t worship their prophet I wonder why the Batley teacher is still in hiding & the murderers happened in the Charlie Hebdo offices.

Now these are the kind of Muslims I can support.
A group of Muslim academics, community leaders and counterextremism experts condemn the ‘weak and underwhelming’ response to the surge in Jewish hatred.

https://www.thetimes.com/article/17256b39-9afd-44cd-a349-722b5a80b676?shareToken=5e6db7ffba2b6004077bbdd99ee970b9

The letter warned that some are using the a veil of legitimate protest to “normalise slogans, symbols and rhetoric that glorify violence”, pointing to some of those seen on pro-Palestine marches that have glorified Hamas and depicted antisemitic imagery and tropes.