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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Please help me navigate the first stages of dating, with a conflict on trans issues (I'm a guy...)

115 replies

ConfessionalPiece · Yesterday 12:26

Name changed for obvious reasons.

Relevant background:

I’m male, divorced, and recently back on the dating scene after a relationship ended about three months ago.

I’m gender critical / sex realist and politically engaged (specifically on this issue, quite engaged). I care a lot about politics, debate and ideas. I also have strong ADHD and light autistic traits, which means I can be quite intense, direct, and I know I don’t always find grey areas easy.

So, I matched with a woman on a dating app recently. There was a very strong connection straight away. We had a long conversation the night we matched, then met the next day despite some distance between us. The date went very well, with real chemistry and intimacy.

Let’s call her Lady X.

There are some practical location issues, but nothing I would necessarily see as impossible if things developed.

The connection felt unusually strong, although I know it is very early days. We seem to have similar neurodivergent traits, and there was that sense of recognising something in each other which can be quite rare.

On my Tinder profile I had said I was genuinely interested in politics. She asked whether I was right wing or a Tory / Reform voter. I said I don’t really fit neatly into party labels, and that I’m more of an issues-based voter than someone tribal about one party.

Then this came up.

While chatting on messages, she mentioned she used to have an anonymous X account where she saw herself as being an ally to people getting abuse, mainly trans people. When I asked a bit more, it turned out this was around the time J.K. Rowling published her letter. Lady X said she had been pushing back against misinformation, scaremongering and bullying. When I asked more, she sent me a link to Mermaids’ response to J.K. Rowling.

I pushed back a little and said I think there are serious issues with Mermaids and that I wouldn’t automatically trust their framing.

This has left me unsure what to do.

I think this could potentially have legs. I also know I am not always easy to be in a relationship with. Partly that is because of how I see the world, partly because of ADHD/autism, although I am happy being who I am. It can just make relationships harder. So the idea of being with someone who genuinely “gets” some of that is very appealing. It could be brilliant. Or it could be a disaster.

I also know that people with our kind of brains can sometimes become very black and white about the world. I have had to work hard on this myself. Years ago, for example, I found it extremely difficult living in a world where people eat meat, because veganism felt so morally obvious to me. I have had to learn, slowly, to sit with ambiguity and difference. I still find it hard.

I am much better sitting with grey areas and ambiguity than I was in the past.

The issue is that I really don’t believe humans can change sex. I think sex matters in some contexts, and I see this as a serious feminist issue. I am struggling to work out whether this is something we could navigate.

Do we just avoid the subject? That seems unlikely to work, especially for me.

Do we have a proper discussion and see whether there is any meeting of minds? That could go well, or it could expose a complete incompatibility.

Do I walk away now and save everyone the trouble?

I want to be live-and-let-live. I genuinely want to respect differences of opinion. But when a difference of opinion touches on women’s rights and safeguarding, I find it much harder to treat it as just another political disagreement.

Am I thinking about this the wrong way?

I know this could go in Relationships, but I thought I might get a different steer here.

And yes, I do know this is only one date so far.

Maybe this is really about politics and values more broadly, and I’m focusing on the trans issue because it is currently so salient for me.

I’d really appreciate advice, especially from women here who understand the current debate.

Please be kind. I know I may be overthinking it.

OP posts:
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CassOle · Yesterday 13:32

The OP could try another mild comment, such as hoping that the guidelines due to the Supreme Court ruling come out soon. If X is a hardline TRA, just mentioning that ruling (without giving an opinion on it) will probably give you the reply you need (whether this relationship is over before it has begun or not).

I will say that I have a relative that I disagree with on this issue. It is the one topic where my relative won't 'agree to disagree'.

DialSquare · Yesterday 13:34

FireBucket · Yesterday 13:07

I don't think you should be the guy who lectures a woman on what is or isn't a feminist issue. Despite what you might hear on here and other forums, many woman do not see feminism and supporting trans rights as incompatible; for many they are intrinsically linked. Regardless of the right of it, it never fails to come off appallingly when a man lectures women about "women's rights".

And whatever you do, don't go into a relationship intent on "educating" or "converting" her, it won't be successful and it'll patronise and annoy her. Also don't assume you know more about the issue than she does. If you're not open to listening to her perspective with a genuine open mind, then do her a favour and let her go.

Edited

Your second paragraph also applies to Lady X.

As others have said. OP, I would have a discussion about it to see if you can agree to disagree on the subject.

AltitudeCheck · Yesterday 13:41

I think it depends what her actual views are and how much they differ from yours. Someone can be a trans ally (sticking up for a trans person who's getting bullied or disrespted when they see that happening) without buying into the belief that someone can change their sex or should have unrestricted access to single sex services / spaces.

I treat trans/ gender beliefs a bit like religion. I am atheist, I could date someone with a personal belief in a higher power/ spiritual outlook and just accept our views were different. I would be far less likely to want to date someone who was an extremely orthodox follower of a particular faith or if their belief was central to their identity or who wanted to insist I was wrong or who tried to 'convert' my way of thinking.

5128gap · Yesterday 13:59

I think its likely if you say you're GC and sex realist, the decision will be taken out of your hands.Because ime, trans allies are a lot less tolerant of GC people than the other way round.
When this woman becomes aware of your views, if she fails to convert you, she is highly likely to develop a very negative view of you as a bigot.
While GC people can often allow that otherwise nice and sensible people may have taken what they consider to be a wrong path in their support of GI, and continue a relationship with them, avoiding the topic, this is very rarely the case in reverse.
If this woman is so much an ally she has raised it so soon, I doubt she will be tolerant of your views and will see them as a sign of bad character akin to racism/homophobia.

VictoriousPunge · Yesterday 14:03

I pushed back a little and said I think there are serious issues with Mermaids and that I wouldn’t automatically trust their framing.

How did she respond to this OP? I am very GC but about two years ago had a convo with my oldest friend and her OH about this topic. We started the conversation on opposite sides of the debate. Not sure if their views changed or not, but they listened to my side quite happily and with curiosity and the convo moved on. No change to our mutual regard.

If she didn't kick off when you said this, the chances are she's the sort of person to be willing to trust that even if you differ, your views come from a good place. If you can trust that hers do too, then disagreeing doesn't have to be a big deal.

Bertiebiscuit · Yesterday 14:03

Tbh i think it would be weird to date someone with such a completely differently belief system,especially a belief system you can't respect (for obvious and very sensible reasons). I think you're on a hiding to nowhere with this one.

ainsleysanob · Yesterday 14:08

Personally, being what would be described as a fierce Terf, I couldn’t be with Lady X if I was you. My opinions on it are far too strong. It wouldn’t be debate, it would become conflict.

MarieDeGournay · Yesterday 14:54

I appreciate that you are prepared to hold and assert gender-critical beliefs, OP.

I think I'm tending towards agreeing with the last two posters - I think a difference of opinion about something so basic is not a good basis for a relationship.
I know some people manage to be together in spite of diametrically opposed views, but I couldn't. As soon as she quoted Mermaids, I'd have been thinking Uh-oh..

Good luck, OP, sorry to be negative but that's what I thinkFlowers

theilltemperedamateur · Yesterday 15:06

You need to tell her. This is not just one belief system amongst many in a pluralist society. It includes the belief that non-believers are both factually wrong and hateful.

RedToothBrush · Yesterday 15:15

Red flag.

There was a very strong connection straight away. We had a long conversation the night we matched, then met the next day despite some distance between us. The date went very well, with real chemistry and intimacy

I think this could potentially have legs. I also know I am not always easy to be in a relationship with.

Regardless of your political beliefs on anything, the OP has had ONE date and is talking as if they've been dating for months.

This is the issue, not whether anyone is incompatible due to GC / trans ally beliefs.
.

aquitodavia · Yesterday 15:16

I'm GC and I could have a relationship with someone who wasn't, as long as they were respectful of my opinion too. The big red flag for me here is that she has created a sock puppet account to, it sounds like, basically attack people who disagree with her? That might not be the case but if she was being measured in the way she was doing it what is the need to be anonymous.

Value wise, I could not get on board with someone who thought it was ok to abuse people anonymously from a keyboard. Maybe you should ask for the account name and check it out?

Mapletree1985 · Yesterday 15:26

Just because someone calls you a bigot doesn't mean you are a bigot. If she can't respect the fact that you hold differing opinions on the question of whether a man can transform into a woman, she is probably not the one for you.

Soontobe60 · Yesterday 15:29

FireBucket · Yesterday 13:07

I don't think you should be the guy who lectures a woman on what is or isn't a feminist issue. Despite what you might hear on here and other forums, many woman do not see feminism and supporting trans rights as incompatible; for many they are intrinsically linked. Regardless of the right of it, it never fails to come off appallingly when a man lectures women about "women's rights".

And whatever you do, don't go into a relationship intent on "educating" or "converting" her, it won't be successful and it'll patronise and annoy her. Also don't assume you know more about the issue than she does. If you're not open to listening to her perspective with a genuine open mind, then do her a favour and let her go.

Edited

Why do you think gender ideology is just a ‘feminist’ issue? Are heterosexual men who know that gay men who claim a women’s identity not allowed to refuse to be coerced into having a relationship with them? This issue concerns everyone.

ConfessionalPiece · Yesterday 15:40

SilenceInside · Yesterday 12:44

I wouldn't walk away now, you don't know whether she's just touched on the surface of the issue and hasn't thought about it in depth, or whether she has fundamentally incompatible views to you. So I'd continue seeing her and see if you can work that out. It's not the end of the world if you have a few dates and realise you are incompatible. It's also interesting to see what a potential partner is like when discussing what could be a hot topic, where the other person doesn't immediately agree.

I also agree with @KnottyAuty if you aren't diagnosed with Autism or ADHD please don't use them as labels for your fairly typical behaviours and thinking style. Posted before I saw your reply to KnottyAuty.

Edited

OK thank you. I did think I might be over thinking it. And with the similar mental patterns coming back from the other side maybe I have gone a bit too deep.

OP posts:
ConfessionalPiece · Yesterday 15:42

Readytoplay · Yesterday 12:49

You are either diagnosed or youre not. It’s helpful to no one to claim traits. Causes our family a lot of problems as disability self ID means my lot aren’t taken seriously. No need to diagnose just say youre a literal thinker

This. Unpopular opinion, but I am getting increasingly annoyed at the amount of slightly quirky people who believe they are ND and are elbowing their way into the ND community. They then also end up dominating all said spaces. I understand it’s difficult to get diagnosed (especially for females) but I believe diagnosed voices are being sidelined (particularly voices of those who were diagnosed as a child, but that’s a separate issue and one that has much more nuance, then I can say here without de-railing the thread.

no no, I get it, I agree, I won't derail, but with so many people saying they are XYZ it sort of devalues the very real struggles I have had my whole life. Just don't like making a big thing out of it.

OP posts:
ConfessionalPiece · Yesterday 15:44

Readytoplay · Yesterday 13:02

if you like this person, go for a couple more ‘dates’ and see how it goes. It’s the only way you will find out whether it could actually work or not.

I do think you are rushing into things too fast however. You’ve been on one date! Yet you seam to be plaining long term. Just get to know them at this stage. The fact that you met up after a day of messaging with quite a commute is an indicator that perhaps that you are trying to go into this quite fast and I would recommend maybe slowing things down.

Can conflicting politics work in a relationship? Depends how much and what you differ on. I think in your case it’s possible that it definitely could work. But I think the main importance here is just spending time together and see how it goes.

Good luck.

OK true, I am not meaning to, just every dating profile you see ALWAYS says "long term only" "no one night stands " etc etc. Thought I was doing the right thing with at least half an eye on future compatibility!

OP posts:
ConfessionalPiece · Yesterday 15:55

CassOle · Yesterday 13:13

This is why you need a Strike book on the shelf behind you in your profile pic. Most people who are unwaveringly pro gender identity and cannot be flexible on this issue will spot it and not message you in the first place.

FWIW, lesbians and gay men who want a same sex relationship have sometimes used this method (or a Harry Potter book) when using 'inclusive' dating sites, as they cannot stipulate openly that they want a same sex relationship.

Given I had to google "Strike Book" that might not be the TRA prophylactic you think it is! A HP book would but then I'd come across as a man child! But, I get it.

Oh I did have in my profile "No men in dresses, no poly, no queer nonsense" Was asked if that meant I don't agree with those things or I just don't want to chat to them here, answered chatting here (true) and mentioned one in fifty profiles on Tinder really is a man in a dress, used those words, and said not even convincing.

No space for the nuance of let people be who they want to be, just stay out of sexed spaces.

I thought this was enough for us to at least not be on two different ends of the argument but now she said she had a anonymous twitter account to, well, possibly help people with scaremongering and bullying (good) but I didn't know what to think of "You know what TERFs are like" . most people have no idea what a TERF is.

OP posts:
ConfessionalPiece · Yesterday 15:56

InveterateBigot · Yesterday 13:28

I matched with a woman on a dating app recently. There was a very strong connection straight away. We had a long conversation the night we matched, then met the next day despite some distance between us. The date went very well, with real chemistry and intimacy.
...
The connection felt unusually strong, although I know it is very early days. We seem to have similar neurodivergent traits, and there was that sense of recognising something in each other which can be quite rare.

From a relationships point of view please be aware of mirroring which can be used in an attempt to form an immediate and strong bond, to make you think you've found your soulmate, 'the one'. And be aware that something so strong and immediate should be treated with great caution.

Being me - I'm not sure I follow, would love to know a bit more, red flag sort of thing?

OP posts:
ConfessionalPiece · Yesterday 15:57

CassOle · Yesterday 13:32

The OP could try another mild comment, such as hoping that the guidelines due to the Supreme Court ruling come out soon. If X is a hardline TRA, just mentioning that ruling (without giving an opinion on it) will probably give you the reply you need (whether this relationship is over before it has begun or not).

I will say that I have a relative that I disagree with on this issue. It is the one topic where my relative won't 'agree to disagree'.

Seems a nice mild subject to try with, can walk a lot slower into this

OP posts:
ConfessionalPiece · Yesterday 15:59

AltitudeCheck · Yesterday 13:41

I think it depends what her actual views are and how much they differ from yours. Someone can be a trans ally (sticking up for a trans person who's getting bullied or disrespted when they see that happening) without buying into the belief that someone can change their sex or should have unrestricted access to single sex services / spaces.

I treat trans/ gender beliefs a bit like religion. I am atheist, I could date someone with a personal belief in a higher power/ spiritual outlook and just accept our views were different. I would be far less likely to want to date someone who was an extremely orthodox follower of a particular faith or if their belief was central to their identity or who wanted to insist I was wrong or who tried to 'convert' my way of thinking.

I agree on this thank you. There are levels I can accept into my life

OP posts:
ConfessionalPiece · Yesterday 16:01

VictoriousPunge · Yesterday 14:03

I pushed back a little and said I think there are serious issues with Mermaids and that I wouldn’t automatically trust their framing.

How did she respond to this OP? I am very GC but about two years ago had a convo with my oldest friend and her OH about this topic. We started the conversation on opposite sides of the debate. Not sure if their views changed or not, but they listened to my side quite happily and with curiosity and the convo moved on. No change to our mutual regard.

If she didn't kick off when you said this, the chances are she's the sort of person to be willing to trust that even if you differ, your views come from a good place. If you can trust that hers do too, then disagreeing doesn't have to be a big deal.

Something along the lines of they may not be perfect but the letter has some good points.

https://mermaidsuk.org.uk/news/dear-jk-rowling/

It seems to cite a lot of things - maybe they are all out dated now?

An open letter to J.K. Rowling - Mermaids

Dear J.K. Rowling, We would like to begin by offering our solidarity with you as a survivor of domestic and sexual abuse. Reading your moving and honest account, we felt a connection to your pain. That connection exists between us, regardless of any di...

https://mermaidsuk.org.uk/news/dear-jk-rowling/

OP posts:
InveterateBigot · Yesterday 18:44

ConfessionalPiece · Yesterday 15:56

Being me - I'm not sure I follow, would love to know a bit more, red flag sort of thing?

Mirroring is where someone basically holds up a mirror to you - they copy if you touch your hair, you say you like peas "OMG! So do I"!, if you sit with your legs crossed they will too. It can be an innocent thing, we can all do it to some extent, but watch out for it. You can test it if you're still in contact with this woman. Say you like some random thing you haven't spoken about before and see what she says about it.

And for it all to be so positive so quickly without actually taking any time to get to know each other, yes, definitely a red flag. It may all be quite innocent but I've seen it too often in abusive relationships not to warn you that it might be something you need to be aware and careful of.

I hope that helps. Happy to try and expand if needs be.

GingerdeadMan · Yesterday 19:36

It might help to dig deep and think about what you really value.

Eg, for me and my husband, truth, critical thinking, good argument ave logic are really important to both of us. I don't think either of us could have a relationship with someone who didn't value these things highly. We are both GC.

If either of us didn't particularly care for those things, we'd probably find it a lot easier to be with someone who doesn't think about things particularly deeply and just thinks we should all 'be kind'.

However spending a lot of time with people who can't spot an illogical argument would drive us both nuts.

It depends where you lie on that spectrum. If you're very logical I can see 'TERFs are evil' getting tiresome very quickly.

She's told you what she thinks of 'TERFs'. She would no doubt describe you as a TERF 🤷‍♀️
I don't think this has got legs.

GingerdeadMan · Yesterday 19:37

Oh and maybe put a copy of Trans by Helen Joyce on your shelf?

Its very moderate, but TRAs hate it/her (ETA I attended her session on it at Oxford literary Festival and the TiM TRAs were howling outside throughout the otherwise excellent and thought provoking session).

IDoHaveACrystalBall · Yesterday 19:48

@ConfessionalPiece this is a dealbreaker for you right?

Honestly, I think a lot of people comment on things when they have no idea what they are

So the first thing I would do is check that she actually knows what she's talking about

I have known people who genuinely think trans is some kind of subset of gay

Does she actually believe that no one should have the right to single sex spaces?

Basically, you need to find out more

I would try and do it by using rational discussion points - and be clear about them

Don't mention any of the key people in the debate because you need to be really clear about how it affects people living their daily lives

I do have a female friend who genuinely thinks that I am OTT in my concerns about men and women's spaces

Maybe the woman you're dating will turn out to be the same

But I think you need to ask the question otherwise it's really going to bother you

People seem to be very shocked when they get facts explained to them (I can't believe I have to say that ) so be careful how you approach it

I think a lot of people are talking about this stuff without knowing what it really involves and she might be one of them