Do you avoid the bathroom if there is a transwoman?

[PeachyDaisy]

I’m going to an industry event next week and I know there will be a transwoman attending. Should I use the disabled bathroom to avoid an awkward encounter or just continue to use the women’s and hope not to run into them?

I would avoid going in whilst any man was in there and I suppose as he may come in whilst I'm already there, I would feel pressured to use the disBled loo which isn't right really.

No BIOLOGICAL MALE should be using a womens toilet. Whether they identify as a woman or not. Still a MAN and no i dont use them if ones in there and I would call them out on it because mostly its men with a beard and lipstick wearing a dress so an AGP .

Not sure you have either - intersectional feminism is where another axis of oppression intersects (ie overlaps) with feminism - eg. racism and misogyny, or ageism and misogyny.

The feminism is still central - still a key part of it.

I would not feel comfortable using the same toilet as a TW. TW are men, they are not women

I wouldn’t give it a second thought.

Which is an entirely different scenario as men and women both have a right to be there and can expect someone of the opposite sex to be there.

err - plenty of trans identified men have beards and deep voices - who are you to police their gender expression.

Come to that, lots of women have deep voices, although the beards are more unusual - and yes, might make me uncomfortable at first - although of course these women will still be woman-shaped in other ways - on average much smaller, with hips etc. so whilst yes, more trans identified women pass than trans identified men, plenty just look like women too.

But here's the thing - they not men.

I don't think that the argument - some women have beards, so you have to let blokes in is a good one personally.

To be fair to AidaP, MN didnt ban him at the point at which he threatened to 'fuck JKR with a splintery rolling pin', it was a while after that.

Sorry about your SIL. It's always sad to discuss this with another woman who you know is smart and kind and find they've "be kind"-ed themselves into not thinking about women and centring men instead.

You are right, a lot of the issues around trans identified males are actually problems that men should be sorting out for themselves. I think being aware of feminist issues probably makes you a better social worker because you will understand a lot of the issues facing your female clients.

A lot of us have been hit with "be kind" crap like this. The irony is that we actually seem to care more about people with trans identities than some of the TRAs, especially when it comes to the vulnerable people who are likely to get swept up in the ideology and why, as well as so called trans healthcare. Those are just two examples of things I care about regarding trans identified people off the top of my head.

I care about trans identified people, even the male ones. I'm sure you do too, the same way you would care about any other human being.

It's ok to centre women as feminists, it's kind of the whole point. Being a feminist and centring women doesn't mean we don't care about other issues in the world, and it doesn't mean we aren't doing what we can in those areas too.

However, we are allowed to be particularly concerned with women's rights and have our main focus be from a feminist point of view. There's nothing wrong with that, don't let your SIL or anyone else make you feel bad for that

Edited to add: I would have said trans women are men to your SIL, but I'm sure that wouldn't have gone down well with her😂

Help me understand. You believe that trans identifying men don’t belong in women’s spaces. But you are happy to assume that this particular trans person is ‘just trying to live his life’ and that nothing is going to happen, even though you don’t know him? Why, then, do you think men should stay out of women’s spaces at all? If they’re just trying to live their lives? Your thinking seems inconsistent and illogical. Surely it’s all men or no men?

But what if I find somebody else's lunch in the office fridge that looks delicious; or somebody else's desk has a much nicer view out of the window than mine; or if my neighbour has a much bigger/nicer garden than mine... can I just go ahead and use other people's things whenever I like because 'I'm just living my life'?

The reality is that they're 'just' living somebody else's life - and they simply don't care about the people whose lives they are choosing to live instead of their own. If 'just living your life' means that you are actively and deliberately stopping other people from living their lives, herein lies the massive problem.

Personally, I'd confront the person and remind them that this is a women only facility. I'd also, of course, be approaching the management of the company or organisation and explaining why.

Of course women have been disciplined for such actions and their lives made unpleasant, but in the U.K, at least, it is now clear that 'female only' facilities are for females only, and for good reason.

Couldn't agree more. Puts me off feminism if I'm honest. I clearly don't hate men enough.

Yes. We live in a society, with other people, which means we have a set of rules governing our behaviour and the way we interact with others. We can't just steal someone else's food or drive someone else's car. We can't go into a pub and buy a beer if we're 16 years old or join the Brownies if we're 25. We can't park on double yellow lines or drive at 35 miles an hour in a 30 mile an hour area.

I could go on, but you get the gist. "Living your life" may sound benign, but in practice none of us can just do anything that takes our fancy - we have to follow the same rules as everyone else.

For some reason, some people appear to think that a certain subgroup of men should be exempt from following those rules. I've got to the point where I don't think it's worth trying to engage these people in rational argument.

I understand the GC view on this and I’m not pro the trans agenda but I don’t think it would stop me using the loos in this case, no. I’m not going to spend my day eyeballing the loos to see if this person is in there or not (guessing an industry event has many attendees), and when I use the loo I go in, lock myself in a cubicle, do what’s needed and come out. I suppose you might see them when washing your hands but I don’t think I’d avoid the toilets completely in this situation.

Are you generalising to all trans people on the basis of three people?

I'm sorry I'm repeating this but I can't believe someone actually posted this. 😮

😂

I was going to say you are very funny, but I'm often too honest for my own good so instead I'll be honest and say you are slightly amusing.

Any other tropes you'd like to throw my way? Perhaps I am being hysterical? I've used some capital letters, maybe you could describe me as "screeching"?

I know lots of people who describe themselves as feminist, a number of them centre men which makes me disagree with their self identification as feminists, but they don't put me off feminism.

Personally it sounds to me like you are making a lame attempt to put other women off feminism.

Then again it's not an echo chamber and I don't control the internet so you are free to disagree with me if you like.

I'll just carry on centring female people in my feminism.

It is not about hating men, it is about having respect for female dignity and privacy. Single sex facilities exist for good reason.

"Most large-scale research doesn’t show higher rates of violent offending among trans people. What it does show consistently is that transgender people are significantly more likely to be victims of violence than cisgender people."

This claim keeps being cycled around. And it is based on the study that you posted.

”Transgender people are over four times more likely than cisgender people to experience violent victimization, including rape, sexual assault, and aggravated or simple assault”

It was from this press release.

williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/

I have a few issues with this press release. I think it has been used widely and extensively since it was released. I believe this document discusses those crime statistics

escholarship.org/content/qt7c3704zg/qt7c3704zg.pdf?t=qqfomk&v=lg

It refers to 369 trans people who identified their sex vs 435 061 people who were not trans identified in a study. There were 420 in total.

The numbers of members of each cohort
not transgender - 435,061
transgender man (TIF) - 181
transgender woman (TIM) - 188
prefer not to say - 51

The sample size was not mentioned at all in the press release!!

Just being generous and using the full transgender population of this survey, that equals 420/435061 =0.000965 x 100 = 0.09% is not a population that you could draw many confident conclusions from for a self reported questionnaire.

Think about this from the point of view that women around the world admit they don’t bother to report their sexual assaults and rapes. Because they have no confidence that they will get justice AND not be vilified in the process.

What % of females actively reporting their attacks vs current trend of not bothering to report would decimate that 420 figure?

And that number cannot be accurately depicted in this point either;

”About half of all violent victimizations were not reported to police. Transgender people were as likely as cisgender people to report violence to police.”

Sure this 'maybe'. However, I believe the huge number of women telling us they don’t report.

This article is misrepresenting the reality.
Then there is this claim:

”Transgender people are over four times more likely than cisgender people to experience violent victimization, including rape, sexual assault, and aggravated or simple assault”

Including! Notice it says ‘including’!

Not ”Trans people are 4 times more likely to experience violent attacks including rape and sexual assault.”

What was NOT included was a handy breakdown of what constituted the crimes against trans people were. What was the bar for a hate crime being committed for instance? Misogyny? Does that fit the definition that holds for transphobic hate crimes?

“One in four transgender women who were victimized thought the incident was a hate crime compared to less than one in ten cisgender women.”

If females were taught how to accurately assess the motivation against them as to whether it constituted a hate crime, or indeed using the very same frames of reference as trans people do but based on sexism, and then they came back and reanswered that same survey, it suspect strongly that it will make that point meaningless? Is misogyny a ‘hate crime’ for instance?

Please stop and actually read carefully the information you post to defend your point.

I don't give a flying fuck whether I put other women off or not, it's simply not one of my objectives. I'm merely saying that it puts me off. If that's enough to make some other women think if they feel the same, up to them but I honestly don't care what other women think. And if there are 'tropes' as you say, maybe that's because there's a grain of truth in there.

Although your voice and your comments do add to the push back to protect women's hard fought for rights, so thank you for not giving up.

I absolutely hate them. And so do the men. There’s one in a bar I go to and there’s always confused embarrassed people trying to find a single sex space.

I’d email in advance to say I expect the transwoman to be using the men’s, but then I am long past the stage of no longer giving a fuck about this nonsense

This is easy to say until you do notice.

we had a trans woman at work. Like you say, hadn’t really crossed my mind, I wasn’t bothered, I had no dealings with her at all other than saw her around the very large building.

one night I was working late. No one else in, everything quiet and dark. Packed up, switched everything off, nipped to the loo on my way out.

used the toilet, came out and was washing my hands when someone else came in, looked up to say hi, to be met with a chest at my eye level.

in that moment it was a completely visceral reaction. Even though they were wearing a dress and make up this was a 6’2 male, strong, powerful. Stood between me and the only doorway. My mind frantically ran through my options. I wouldn’t get past them, physically I had no chance. I could retreat into a cubicle, shout for help, but with no one else around that wouldn’t do much anyway.

they did see me and backed out again. But honestly the fight or flight response so was strong and so automatic, it took me completely by surprise.

so while I am sure most trans women do just want to “go about their business” it doesn’t stop the fear being real.

You are partly correct about there is not enough evidence to conclusively report that being transgender is more likely to commit violent crime.

There IS however some solid evidence that MALE people with a transgender identity retain the same male criminality patterns for sex offences at all stages of their transition. It is very important to make this distinction because for safeguarding principles to be applied, the risk assessment would need to find that that group of male people would have to have proven history as a group of having the same risk of committing those crimes or less than FEMALE people.

And the prisoner statistics that we can gather at the moment does not show this conviction rate to be anywhere close to the female rate.

REBECCA PAUL'S (MP REIGATE) QUESTION ON MALE PEOPLE WITH TRANSGENDER IDENTITIES IN UK PRISONS

This was a question answered in Parliament in 23 December 2024:
https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2024-12-16/20298.

Question from Rebecca Paul (MP Reigate): To ask the Secretary of State for Justice, with reference to the HMPPS Offender Equalities Annual Report 2023-2024, published on 28 November 2024, how many of the 50 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as female were convicted of a sexual offence.
Answer from Sir Richard Dakin (MP Scunthorpe): 23 December 2024
Of the 245 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as male (i.e. those who now identify as women, non-binary or gender-fluid) on 31 March 2024, 151 were convicted of a sexual offence. This includes both contact and non-contact sexual offences. Offence data was not available for 1 individual.
Of the 50 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as female on 31 March 2024, the number convicted of a sexual offence is five or fewer. We do not provide exact data for such small sample sizes as it risks identification of individuals. This approach is in line with our standards on data disclosure.

Just a note on this:

Regarding the % of male prisoners in UK with transgender identities. The mentioned above for the year ending 31 March 2024 had the figure that 151 of the 243 male prisoners in the UK prisons had at least one sex offence on their record.

The ratio changed from 43.3% (88/203) having at least one sex offence to their name at 31 March 2023 to 151/243 to 62.1% as at 31 March 2024.

The increase of the overall number of male prisoners with transgender identities in the UK prisons between 2023 and 2024 was only 42 yet the increase in the sex offenders was 63.

In 2019, there were 3.3% of female people in UK prisons were sex offenders. I haven’t looked up the stats since. But I wouldn’t expect this will be different. Last time I looked at the raw stats for female sex offences, they had remained stable numbers for a decade or more despite population growth.

For male people with transgender identities to have the same rate of committing sex offences, there would be 8 (3.3% of 243) prisoners with trans identities in the UK prison population with sex offences.

8
Not 151.

And if someone tries to suggest that the majority of these male prisoners have declared that they are women to gain access to the female prisons, I doubt this is true.

Considering the sex crime numbers for that prison population jumped from 88 to 151 male prisoners with a sex offence that declared they were women in a year (31 March 2024 to 31 March 2024) AFTER the publishing of the guidance in early February 2023, I seriously doubt these new prisoners are making declarations for the benefit of getting into the female prison.